Is it Possible to Properly Evaluate a Product if one Doesn't Like how it Sounds? Are Experts just Preaching Their Tastes?

[exupgh12]

I agree with Ted here. This hobby seems more contentious than the average hobby.

As one example I've read on-line off-roading forums where the registrants have in their signatures long list of specialty parts they've added to their SUVs -- like we have for audio components. They have strong discussions about the advantages and disadvantages of vehicles and parts. But I don't sense the level of self-righteousness or arrogance or misplaced ego I see from some audiophiles.

Do people on on-line off-roading forums have their egos wrapped up in their opinions about which shock absorber is "best"? I never sensed a religious zeal about preferences over electric winches.

Ron,

While I agree that audiophiles sit at the top of the hierarchy in this regard, many other hobbies also inspire a near-religious zeal about personal preferences. Enthusiasts in photography, horology, cooking, coffee, wine & whisky, fitness, cycling, writing instruments, and even gun shooting often develop strong opinions, sometimes to the point of believing their way is the only right way.

Certain hobbies naturally attract people with deeply held preferences, leading to debates and divisions over what is considered “correct”.

 

[bonzo75]

I agree with Ted here. This hobby seems more contentious than the average hobby.

This hobby as a higher price variance, but unlike watches is not a status hobby and price does not reflect Rolex etc quality.

In this hobby, there are people who understand sound and music and those who do not. As that is what should matter, those who do, think that those who do not and spend millions are silly.. those who spend millions but do not understand music and sound, claim they spent a million. Hence the divide.

95% of components cater to price conscious, at the expense of sound and music, which makes some wonder why those people are here.

People whose choice gets trashed feel miffed they are not cultured enough to understand the difference between realism and toy sound despite having shovelled out big bucks

 

[Rt66indierock]

I agree with Ted here. This hobby seems more contentious than the average hobby.

Ron, this hobby is more contentious because it is fundamentally dishonest.

 

[hopkins]

This hobby as a higher price variance, but unlike watches is not a status hobby and price does not reflect Rolex etc quality.

In this hobby, there are people who understand sound and music and those who do not. As that is what should matter, those who do, think that those who do not and spend millions are silly.. those who spend millions but do not understand music and sound, claim they spent a million. Hence the divide.

95% of components cater to price conscious, at the expense of sound and music, which makes some wonder why those people are here.

People whose choice gets trashed feel miffed they are not cultured enough to understand the difference between realism and toy sound despite having shovelled out big bucks

Sounds like what you really need are some therapy sessions to adress all your frustrations and lack of recognition.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Ron, this hobby is more contentious because it is fundamentally dishonest.

I don't know what you're talking about, but whatever it is I disagree, because this hobby is not fundamentally dishonest.

 

[Rt66indierock]

I don't know what you're talking about, but whatever it is I disagree, because this hobby is not fundamentally dishonest.

Okay Ron dishonesty starts with our sources, recordings.

“This creative process is therefore nothing like a snapshot, nor even the equivalent of an Ansel Adams photograph. It is more akin to a painting! With literal honesty an unattainable goal, engineering thus becomes art, with artifice used to create a recorded sound that can convince listeners that they are present at the live event. Recording engineer Jim Watson expressed this best on a pro-audio mailing list: "All recordings are lies. The best recording/mix engineers are the best liars."”

Bonus points if you can tell me who wrote this recently. The author and I have known this all of our adult lives and both of us are in our seventies.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Okay Ron dishonesty starts with our sources, recordings.

“This creative process is therefore nothing like a snapshot, nor even the equivalent of an Ansel Adams photograph. It is more akin to a painting! With literal honesty an unattainable goal, engineering thus becomes art, with artifice used to create a recorded sound that can convince listeners that they are present at the live event. Recording engineer Jim Watson expressed this best on a pro-audio mailing list: "All recordings are lies. The best recording/mix engineers are the best liars."”

Bonus points if you can tell me who wrote this recently. The author and I have known this all of our adult lives and both of us are in our seventies.

I think it's an insightful quote. It makes sense to me. I don't know who wrote it.

But it does not make the hobby fundamentally dishonest.

 

[tima]

This hobby seems more contentious than the average hobby.

Do you think your forum contributes to that with its social credit scoring? I do.

 

[treitz3]

Good evening, Tim. Social credit scoring? What on Earth are you talking about?

Color me a little bit lost on this aspect....are you referring to "likes" and things like that....or am I oblivious to something here?

Tom

 

[caesar]

I agree with Ted here. This hobby seems more contentious than the average hobby.

As one example I've read on-line off-roading forums where the registrants have in their signatures long list of specialty parts they've added to their SUVs -- like we have for audio components. They have strong discussions about the advantages and disadvantages of vehicles and parts. But I don't sense the level of self-righteousness or arrogance or misplaced ego I see from some audiophiles.

Do people on on-line off-roading forums have their egos wrapped up in their opinions about which shock absorber is "best"? I never sensed a religious zeal about preferences over electric winches.

Naive realism psychological fallacy: many people in this hobby foolishly assume that just because something sounds real to them / they enjoy it, everyone else’s imagination of stereo must to match theirs

 

[caesar]

Again a semantic debate - it all depends on what is exactly meant by "evaluate". If it just a private or group unformal personal evaluation like or not and why is part of it.

But if it is a professional evaluation such as a public review to be released and have impact on market the strong bias introduced by disliking precludes a proper review.

Those guys evaluating should be clear about what they like, what they dislike, and the tradeoffs between what they are acclimated to and what they evaluating

 

[tima]

Good evening, Tim. Social credit scoring? What on Earth are you talking about?

Color me a little bit lost on this aspect....are you referring to "likes" and things like that....or am I oblivious to something here?

Tom

Why don't you do a little bit of research on the topic, Tom. My question is for Ron.

 

[treitz3]

Not to drift off topic here, Tim....but if I don't know what I am researching into? Never mind. As the lead moderator, I'm quite sure I have a very low social credit score here. Jimmy crack.

Thank you so much for answering my inquiry. You were incredibly unhelpful with your answer.

Tom

 

[microstrip]

I don't know what you're talking about, but whatever it is I disagree, because this hobby is not fundamentally dishonest.

I would not say fundamentally dishonest , but I understand that an hobby that aims at creating an illusion that is extremely difficult to quantify can be perceived as such as soon as we introduce the words "better than" and rankings.

Lack of transparency and abusive marketing are not forcefully an indication of dishonesty, but does not help the high-end image.

 

[tima]

Good evening, Tim. Social credit scoring? What on Earth are you talking about?

Color me a little bit lost on this aspect....are you referring to "likes" and things like that....or am I oblivious to something here?

Tom

Why don't you do a little bit of research on the topic, Tom. My question is for Ron

Not to drift off topic here, Tim....but if I don't know what I am researching into? Never mind. As the lead moderator, I'm quite sure I have a very low social credit score here. Jimmy crack.

Thank you so much for answering my inquiry. You were incredibly unhelpful with your answer.

Tom

Tom I cannot speak to what your are oblivious or to how you are perceived. I suggested you do a bit of research on your own question. You seem to grasp it well enough to make claims about yourself. To help you stay on topic, I note that my question to Ron was directed to his claim that the audio hobby is more contentious than other hobbies.
Tim

 

[tima]

“This creative process is therefore nothing like a snapshot, nor even the equivalent of an Ansel Adams photograph. It is more akin to a painting! With literal honesty an unattainable goal, engineering thus becomes art, with artifice used to create a recorded sound that can convince listeners that they are present at the live event. Recording engineer Jim Watson expressed this best on a pro-audio mailing list: "All recordings are lies. The best recording/mix engineers are the best liars."”

I think it's an insightful quote. It makes sense to me. I don't know who wrote it.

But I don't think it makes the hobby fundamentally dishonest

I think it's a bullsh▪︎t quote. Recordings are not liars, they are reproduction. Reproduction is not reality. But I agree that fundamentally the hobby is not dishonest.

 

[treitz3]

Your claim was that the WBF had some sort of social credit score, Tim. This, I took issue with. There is no social credit score in the US. In other words, your accusation against the WBF is false....and honestly, not appreciated.

That said, let's stay on topic.

 Tom

 

[microstrip]

I think it's a bullsh▪︎t quote. Recordings are not liars, they are reproduction. Reproduction is not reality. But I agree that fundamentally the hobby is not dishonest.

Tim,

Unfortunately people are reading the quote out of context , and IMO misunderstanding it. This interesting quote must be understood in the context of the Circle of Confusion as referred by Floyd Toole, addressing the limitations of stereo, how they are overcome and the lack of standardisation in the stereo recording process .

 

[JackD201]

Is it possible to properly evaluate a product if one doesn't Like how it sounds?

Is it all about taste?

Thanks

Yes and Yes

- This is now a prime example of my not providing any context LOL

 

[Al M.]

Okay Ron dishonesty starts with our sources, recordings.

“This creative process is therefore nothing like a snapshot, nor even the equivalent of an Ansel Adams photograph. It is more akin to a painting! With literal honesty an unattainable goal, engineering thus becomes art, with artifice used to create a recorded sound that can convince listeners that they are present at the live event. Recording engineer Jim Watson expressed this best on a pro-audio mailing list: "All recordings are lies. The best recording/mix engineers are the best liars."”

Bonus points if you can tell me who wrote this recently. The author and I have known this all of our adult lives and both of us are in our seventies.

It's John Atkinson:

Confounding the Circle of Confusion

In last month's As We See It, I offered some reminiscences of my almost half-century of being involved in audio magazine publishing, as well as some thoughts on the Law of Diminishing Returns as it applied to the prices of hi-fi products. As I was compiling this issue's Records 2 Live 4, it...

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