Agreed. But I don't have much patience or understanding for folks who espouse an "absolutist" position and are critical of anothers personal choice. This holds true with all things in life, not just audio.
+1, if not 1,000. I'll take a CDP over d/l's any day of the week. I don't need streaming either as I have enough music and also participate on several more music-centric fora, and even FB pages, to get info on new artists. That's JMO and it's fine with me if one doesn't agree with my position, but don't knock me for it either though.
We all live in the present Peter. As I just explained, we were asked not to look at present but the future. And your question did the same with respect to books. For decades my job was to predict the future and govern development of technology in that direction. Back in the DOS days, I got a copy of Windows 1.0. Everything about it was awful except one thing: my wife who was used to a Mac could navigate Windows but would not touch DOS. I saw that and was convinced that we would all migrate to that kind of universe. Sure, I would miss being able to type fast and do things in DOS and not have to constantly reach for the mouse. But the future is the future. We better adopt it and not keep giving contrarian views based on personal preference right here, right now.
I am about to go to CEDIA in a couple of hours. Last night wanted some reading material. Hopped on Amazon and found the book I wanted but it was nearly $150 (engineering book). The e-book version was 30% cheaper and I could have it right then. So that is what I did. I thought about your comment before I bought it. I will think about it when I read it on the plane this afternoon.
I didn't call you that. But anyone who tells someone else to buy an expensive CD-player now, shoulders a big responsibility. I hope you are up to that when you dish out that advice.
Amir, You implied that I was living in the past in one of your posts, so I wrote that I think I am living in the present, along with you and everyone else reading this. I never said that you called me a Luddite. My comment was a response to the tone of your posts in this thread. I agree with Al M that if anything, the absolutist tone that some espouse about computer audio is turning me off a bit. Were we not just discussing how great the NADAC DAC and Quad DSD is in this very forum and how it is the next great thing? I heard that DAC and was not overly impressed. What happened to it? Perhaps we are on to something else new again.
Finally, a more careful reading of my post would reveal the following: I did not tell the OP to buy the CDP, I just suggested that he should IF he has a large CD collection AND IF he likes the palpable nature of holding the CDs and collecting them, AND IF he likes the sound, AND IF he can afford it. That is a long list of conditions which I think should be met if making such a purchase, but it is obviously up to him to decide what to buy. I can't do that for him. He asked for advice, or it was implied in the OP, and I, like others, gave him my opinion. Now what is the big responsibility that I should shoulder when dishing out that advice, exactly?
Paulson and Einhorn have lost just over 40% of AUM since their peaks in 2011 and 2014 respectively. Paulson’s portfolio decreased from $13.5 billion to $9.84 billion in the second quarter of 2016 alone. Einhorn lost 2.6% in the second quarter (his sixth consecutive down quarter), with a YTD profit of 0.4%.
What does that tell us? Human beings are lousy predictors of the future.
Thanks Peter. It is about time someone asked this question. BTW, I do not know if you remember, but we sat next to each other on a return flight from LV after a CES 4 years ago.
I would have enjoyed sitting next to you on a return flight from CES. However, you must have me confused with someone else. As they say, "To the best of my knowledge, I have no recollection of that." I have never attended CES nor have I been to Las Vegas since 1982.
Paulson and Einhorn have lost just over 40% of AUM since their peaks in 2011 and 2014 respectively. Paulson’s portfolio decreased from $13.5 billion to $9.84 billion in the second quarter of 2016 alone. Einhorn lost 2.6% in the second quarter (his sixth consecutive down quarter), with a YTD profit of 0.4%.
What does that tell us? Human beings are lousy predictors of the future.
I was referring to 2008 only. Otherwise I would have called us Warren Buffet.
Just fyi, I personally was not predicting the future. I was observing the present. To me, Streamers + dacs and vinyl both sound better than CDs, with the former being more convenient as well.
Someone should check with Joel as well, he owns both Lumin and one of the Esoteric models (K03, I think), and prefers Lumin sonically as well.
One more point, please check with Detlof, we both found his Beast + MSB much preferable to his Zanden (though at least in this case his streamer dac is expensive). I have thrown in a few data points other than my own preferences, I hope streaming over CD is worth investigating, rather than
There is more to the enjoyment of music than sound quality. The tactile experience of physical media cannot be denied, it is an intrinsical part of the listening experience. It (IMO) provides a connection that streaming cannot ever hope to accomplish. You may say that in some or many cases it provides a better sound, but you can't say it is more enjoyable because of.
One more point, please check with Detlof, we both found his Beast + MSB much preferable to his Zanden (though at least in this case his streamer dac is expensive). I have thrown in a few data points other than my own preferences, I hope streaming over CD is worth investigating, rather than
The undeniable fact that a CDP is still a very good investment for a long time is the issues of troubleshooting. NONE of the software options that you can put on a computer based source are supported by an actual team of people. And with the decline of dealers who is going to help Russ if it doesn't run?
A CDP is plug and play. If it stop working you know that it is a hardware issue and needs to be returned to the manufacturer.
A Streamer goes down and have to being the troubleshooting process and to a computer nerd this comes easy. To more novices it can be quite cumbersome and to beginners forget it.
Jriver, Foobar and Roon is a forum to browse for answers and most times a Windows bad update could be the problem. There could be a bad driver. You could have a power outage and the network be reset and not see the streamer. Etc Etc Etc.
Downloads are the wave of the future for most, but they are not the future for everyone
Most people have streaming over the net and streaming a local connection as just another source,, most of my pals do "streaming" and use their CDP's and TT's... some even have tuners and cassettes and some even do R2R
My one pal even buys music and never listens to it..3000 lps , 3000 cds , 90% unwrapped..makes him happy
After my quad bypass a moth ago I have a new attitude.. buy what you want now ,if you can afford it and it makes you happy, YOLO
I was referring to 2008 only. Otherwise I would have called us Warren Buffet.
Just fyi, I personally was not predicting the future. I was observing the present. To me, Streamers + dacs and vinyl both sound better than CDs, with the former being more convenient as well.
Oh, totally. Very aware you’re not trying to be a soothsayer. Unlike, y’know...some other people.
This is the data as of the beginning of this year, and though it seems inelegant to quote oneself, I would be very surprised if there’s been a reversal in direction for any of the below (from a robust discussion I endured...I mean...enjoyed with Blizzard, whom I believe no longer occupies the time of others predicting the future):
853guy said:
The trend for vinyl is year-on-year increase for the last ten years straight. CD’s? Year-on-year decline for the last ten years (though still generated six times the revenue of ad-supported streaming in 2015, and accounted for 78%, 70% and 57% of music industry revenue in Japan, Germany and France respectively - still alive and well there). Downloads? Down 8% in 2015.
Streaming? Doing alright, thanks. But when the largest selling artist of 2015 doesn’t have her album available on Spotify, Apple Music, Tidal, Deezer, et al*, you kinda have to ask where the future of streaming is headed given pay-per-play artist royalties currently average $0.0022 across all streaming services and the Nielsen 2015 report is saying less than 9% of people will pay for a streaming service in the next six months, with 78% saying it’s somewhat to very unlikely.
The undeniable fact that a CDP is still a very good investment for a long time is the issues of troubleshooting. NONE of the software options that you can put on a computer based source are supported by an actual team of people. And with the decline of dealers who is going to help Russ if it doesn't run?
A CDP is plug and play. If it stop working you know that it is a hardware issue and needs to be returned to the manufacturer.
A Streamer goes down and have to being the troubleshooting process and to a computer nerd this comes easy. To more novices it can be quite cumbersome and to beginners forget it.
Jriver, Foobar and Roon is a forum to browse for answers and most times a Windows bad update could be the problem. There could be a bad driver. You could have a power outage and the network be reset and not see the streamer. Etc Etc Etc.
Downloads are the wave of the future for most, but they are not the future for everyone
I have seen enough struggles with computer/server implementations to say, no thank you. For me, that is. If it's worthwhile for others and it makes them happy, that's great for them.
whats the difference between messing with server and software settings , vs lets say setting up a TT and cart , or valve rolling , or messing with cables , power supplies , room treatments , dsp etc..
There is always something to fiddle with in hifi
Exactly...vinyl was different, it always sounded better than CD, but CD never did sound better than streaming, except in cases of certain CD players which are way more expensive than streamers. And CD technology is not improving, while streamer technology keeps improving rapidly. Stream. If you are going to get up to play something and be tactile and want SQ, go analog.
Those who are worried if CD sounds better than streaming are OCDing about which sounds less worse as compared to vinyl. I can easily see why vinyl can be a choice at the cost of convenience. I cannot see why CD can be a choice at the cost of convenience, even assuming it sounds better
What you discover when you actually do own one is that vinyl varies massively in SQ and digital is far more consistent. I have some dreadful vinyl pressings, an awful lot of average and some brilliant ones. That said some analogue recordings have been crucified when digitised.
However, digital is still the more consistent format.
What I have found is some people are very allergic to streaming and online music services.
However, when you "break" them, they are eternally thankful to you. Jerry (MBL Jerry) was my last success.
+1 best physical playback being from current SOTA digital front-ends with physical CD, XRCD(x) and SACD. I've heard what are considered the best computer-based
server offerings today including $45K-$55K (retail) platforms such as the fully loaded Memory Player64 32-core and other servers that sounded great but they were
edged out by the best physical disc players out there and of course, vinyl.
Actually, I didn't do any such. I have been debating by citing examples of my own and other people, while all your recent posts, to me or others, are of a self appointed moderator.
whats the difference between messing with server and software settings , vs lets say setting up a TT and cart , or valve rolling , or messing with cables , power supplies , room treatments , dsp etc..
There is always something to fiddle with in hifi
When you roll tubes or change Tonearm cart etc you are volunteering the time to test or try for change and/or improvement in sound.
When you know what you are doing in software there is no difference, but there is a difference if your music doesn't play and you dont know what you're doing. You never chose to test it you just want it to play
Hardware is always easier to work with than software. Look at the endless posts on any of the optional software products you can load. For being "easy" there are a ton of confused experts out there.
If I did recommend to the OP to look at streaming it would be under the guidance of a proprietary tech that is supported by the manufacturer. This way something goes wrong they have a resource to fix it. Most that try the streaming on their own give up in the first sign of trouble.....
Agreed. But I don't have much patience or understanding for folks who espouse an "absolutist" position and are critical of anothers personal choice. This holds true with all things in life, not just audio.
Fully agreed....too many times people seem to feel the need to take up an absolutist and hyper-critical stance to accompany what they personally favor and attack others for what they believe or are happy with.
This happens way too much in society IMHO,...the need to judge has gone way too far in the world and more people should leave others be and let them live their life...
With how my system sounds today, and with the enjoyment I take from reading physical media liner notes, etc..., how it all sounds here compared to other (rather good sounding)
alternatives is me having my "head in the sand" and "living in the past", I gladly accept that as well and say "It's my house & my hard-earned cash,...bring more sand <LOL>!!!"
Sujay, Al, PeterA: Also love your posts and fully agree!
All: Not targeting any one post/person in my response, just the pattern that seems to be emerging here and other forums I participate in. See it at work and in the damned town around us too...
BTW....I like reading hard-cover, real, physical books as well. They're not dead either !
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