Is the box speaker a dinosaur?

[FrantzM]

Hello Micro

LOL your kidding right. Not for the professionals!! Why do you think the professionals wasted their time on them?? For the DIY set?? When a manufacturer specs a custom woofer/midrange, aside from materials used, what parameters do you think he uses??

I'll give you hint T/S




What myth is that?? You do realize that a 3db pad means that with a 100 watt peak you are dropping 50 watts across the attenuation resistors. If it's a 6dB pad it's 75 watts. Now you question why designers use large power resistors in passive networks??

Granted that there is normally no attenuation with woofers, mid ranges on the other hand, can have a good bit between band pass attenuation and any notch filters used to smooth the response.

Any attenuation or notch filters used removes amp headroom and screws up the dynamic linerarity of the system. Typically you end up with full amp power for the woofer only. The mids and highs are at best runing at -3db or quite a bit more below that. The kicker is the transient response is in the upper frequencies so if you limit the power there the system will just become strained when pushed.

As far as box speaker being dinosaurs not hardly. They are not going anywhere. Panels/dipoles will always be in the minority. Bass reflex rules, the best compromise for efficiency, power handling, bass extension and size.



Rob

Thanks Rob .. Often I wonder if microstrip is not pulling legs. You know just stirring the pot. microstrip is extremely knowledgeable about the technical side of Audio, but his agenda is clearly to "defend the audiophiles who cares about High End Audio" at all cost ...

This post about Engineers at Wilson not considering the Thiele Small parameters will give anyone pause but hey .. That's microstrip for you

BTW, I am not sure that David Wilson chooses his drivers the way you refer - at less from what I could read during many years about the properties he wants his drivers to have. Assuming that "Thiele-Small parameters describe very well a driver" is nice for DIY building subwoofers, not for professional manufacturers. And yes, I have built speakers long ago this way, and even recently built a 60 litters box to measure the TS parameters of a 15" woofer - REW is of great help for these measurements.

emphasis is mine

 

[microstrip]

Hello Micro

LOL your kidding right. Not for the professionals!! Why do you think the professionals wasted their time on them?? For the DIY set?? When a manufacturer specs a custom woofer/midrange, aside from materials used, what parameters do you think he uses??

I'll give you hint T/S




What myth is that?? You do realize that a 3db pad means that with a 100 watt peak you are dropping 50 watts across the attenuation resistors. If it's a 6dB pad it's 75 watts. Now you question why designers use large power resistors in passive networks??

Granted that there is normally no attenuation with woofers, mid ranges on the other hand, can have a good bit between band pass attenuation and any notch filters used to smooth the response.

Any attenuation or notch filters used removes amp headroom and screws up the dynamic linerarity of the system. Typically you end up with full amp power for the woofer only. The mids and highs are at best runing at -3db or quite a bit more below that. The kicker is the transient response is in the upper frequencies so if you limit the power there the system will just become strained when pushed.

As far as box speaker being dinosaurs not hardly. They are not going anywhere. Panels/dipoles will always be in the minority. Bass reflex rules, the best compromise for efficiency, power handling, bass extension and size.



Rob

Rob,

I have to say I would not expect this comment from you Rob. IMHO quoting just part of a comment and misrepresenting the main idea is not nice. What I was saying is that there is much more about a speaker driver than its T/S parameters, and that no professional would choose the driver he uses just on T/S parameters. Please re-read the full debate.

Again you choose an extreme case. Typical values of series resistors in crossovers are around .5 to 1.5 ohm. Damping resistors that are user in parallel have much higher values - tens of ohms. Any one knowing basic ohms law and that typical value of the resistive part of drivers is around 6 ohm will be able to see how misleading is your -3dB or -6dB argument.

Your argument about linearity of a system being strained and pushed just because it is not highly efficient is also an old myth, based only in subjective findings, used mainly by supporters of horns or other type of high efficiency speakers. As FrantZ will surely tell you the laws of Physics do not support it.

 

[microstrip]

Thanks Rob .. Often I wonder if microstrip is not pulling legs. You know just stirring the pot. microstrip is extremely knowledgeable about the technical side of Audio, but his agenda is clearly to "defend the audiophiles who cares about High End Audio" at all cost ...

This post about Engineers at Wilson not considering the Thiele Small parameters will give anyone pause but hey .. That's microstrip for you
emphasis is mine

FrantZ,

It seems that the only leg I was pulling was yours. Please read my answer to Rob. BTW, my answer to your sentence referred to David Wilson, who is still the responsible person for the voicing of his speakers, not his engineers. Thanks for changing the sense of my words to prove your point - it only needs a very quick answer.

And yes I defend the High-End cause most of the time. Specially when people who so not understand about its fundamental aspects try to use superficial technical arguments and basic generic Physical laws with nice sounding names to prove that the Earth is not flat and because of that high-end designers are a fraud. Yes Frantz, my next comment will need to explain what I mean with this sentence as you will ask for it ...

Happy Holiday to all you, believers or not believers!

 

[mep]

“I’m just a soul whose intentions are good. Oh Lord, please don’t let me be misunderstood.”

 

[Old Listener]

Which is the dinosaur?

Outside the high-end ghetto, box speakers are the norm and panel speakers are an endangered species. Inside the ghetto, box speakers are probably much more common than panel speakers.

Bill

 

[Robh3606]

Rob,

I have to say I would not expect this comment from you Rob. IMHO quoting just part of a comment and misrepresenting the main idea is not nice. What I was saying is that there is much more about a speaker driver than its T/S parameters, and that no professional would choose the driver he uses just on T/S parameters. Please re-read the full debate.

Hello Micro

From what I got out of it was that you were basically saying that the T/S parameters were not as important. That is simply not the case. When they do QC on drivers one of the aspects measured is the T/S parameters. If FS VAS Q are not consistent it's going to screw up box alignment and in turn the frequency response.

As far as the attenuation I chose as being extreme it clearly is not. What you need to look at is not just the value series resistor but the attenuation from the pair. Have you never noticed attenuation scales on speakers with L-Pads?? I posted a schematic and voltage drive before but took it down to get personal info off of it. I will repost it.

Your argument about linearity of a system being strained and pushed just because it is not highly efficient is also an old myth, based only in subjective findings, used mainly by supporters of horns or other type of high efficiency speakers. As FrantZ will surely tell you the laws of Physics do not support it.

I don't think so when a system runs out of power on peaks how would you describe it??

Happy holidays to you as well and everyone else on the board.

Rob

 

[FrantzM]

microstrip

This was my post

Snip> We do that with speakers and guess what? These models are a pretty good indication of what these speakers can do thus the famed Thiele-Small parameters that describe very well a driver. I am certain that David Wilson and the Wilson Audio Engineers look at the Thiele-Small parameters when they have to choose drivers for their speakers, before even turning a signal on the drivers .. You will not tell me they go around listening to drivers before they read their specs (based on measurements and of course models). If it were the other way they would spend a few centuries listening to all the drivers available on this planet … <snip>!

to what you replied

Frantz,

Although I like your repetition of a few simple known truths, my perspective is always trying to find if something can be correlated or not with high sound quality. And it is not what sounds good to me - it is what sounds good to the an appreciable majority of the audiophiles who care about high-end. IMHO this criteria is enough to establish a platform where we can have a meaningful debate, even respecting the diversity caused by one's preferences.

BTW, I am not sure that David Wilson chooses his drivers the way you refer - at less from what I could read during many years about the properties he wants his drivers to have. Assuming that "Thiele-Small parameters describe very well a driver" is nice for DIY building subwoofers, not for professional manufacturers. And yes, I have built speakers long ago this way, and even recently built a 60 litters box to measure the TS parameters of a 15" woofer - REW is of great help for these measurements.

I can not understand your comments about the DIY's and the DCX's - my apologies. And I still do not understand what the laws of Physics have to do with the copy sounding better than the original - I am assuming that being better in this question is sounding better. It seems we are now again close to the psychoacoustics you dislike so much.

FrantZ,

It seems that the only leg I was pulling was yours. Please read my answer to Rob. BTW, my answer to your sentence referred to David Wilson, who is still the responsible person for the voicing of his speakers, not his engineers. Thanks for changing the sense of my words to prove your point - it only needs a very quick answer.

And yes I defend the High-End cause most of the time. Specially when people who so not understand about its fundamental aspects try to use superficial technical arguments and basic generic Physical laws with nice sounding names to prove that the Earth is not flat and because of that high-end designers are a fraud. Yes Frantz, my next comment will need to explain what I mean with this sentence as you will ask for it ...

Happy Holiday to all you, believers or not believers!

Emphasis is mine ... Enough said .. You are pulling straws microstrip truly. Don't. it has been consistent throughout this exchange. The propeties of a driver are described in their THiele-Small parameters ... show me where did I say he din;t have to? please do. Please ..

Just out of curiosity, have you conducted a survey that allow you to say things like

And it is not what sounds good to me - it is what sounds good to the an appreciable majority of the audiophiles who care about high-end

.. Curious to see the survey, informal will do. Or is it an opinion? Once more? in defense of the High End ?

 

[A.wayne]

A. Wayne you're losing me. I stated some facts. Can you prove me wrong? Where in the world have I posted that designing SOTA speakers did not require listening? Please do show me so that I can quickly correct my statement. Straw arguments?

@greg

I am with you on the Performance to cost ratio of panels. Where we diverge is to think box speakers are dinosaurs. On the contrary I see them adapting and striving ...
Beautiful set-ups by the way especially the CLX

Irony ..

You should read back , context and you offered no facts , only conjecture ......!!!!

 

[A.wayne]

microstrip

This was my post
I am certain that David Wilson and the Wilson Audio Engineers look at the Thiele-Small parameters when they have to choose drivers for their speakers, before even turning a signal on the drivers ..*



to what you replied




Emphasis is mine ... Enough said .. You are pulling straws microstrip truly. Don't. it has been consistent throughout this exchange. The propeties of a driver are described in their THiele-Small parameters ... show me where did I say he din;t have to? please do. Please ..

Just out of curiosity, have you conducted a survey that allow you to say things like .. Curious to see the survey, informal will do. Or is it an opinion? Once more? in defense of the High End ?

Again all conjecture offered as facts , please go ahead and provide facts of how Dave Wilson choose's his drivers ...

 

[A.wayne]

Hello Micro

From what I got out of it was that you were basically saying that the T/S parameters were not as important. That is simply not the case. When they do QC on drivers one of the aspects measured is the T/S parameters. If FS VAS Q are not consistent it's going to screw up box alignment and in turn the frequency response.

As far as the attenuation I chose as being extreme it clearly is not. What you need to look at is not just the value series resistor but the attenuation from the pair. Have you never noticed attenuation scales on speakers with L-Pads?? I posted a schematic and voltage drive before but took it down to get personal info off of it. I will repost it.



I don't think so when a system runs out of power on peaks how would you describe it??

Happy holidays to you as well and everyone else on the board.

Rob

Frantz,
For someone who claims no knowledge on xovers / speaker designing you do make a lot of absolute statements on the subject ...

Anyway into some sorrel now with a little christmas cake ....enjoy the holidays ..

 

[microstrip]

microstrip

Emphasis is mine ... Enough said .. You are pulling straws microstrip truly. Don't. it has been consistent throughout this exchange. The propeties of a driver are described in their THiele-Small parameters ... show me where did I say he din;t have to? please do. Please ..

Just out of curiosity, have you conducted a survey that allow you to say things like .. Curious to see the survey, informal will do. Or is it an opinion? Once more? in defense of the High End ?

Frantz,

Sometimes you love to play with the technical words even when you do not have the technical capability to understand what we are debating. A dangerous game. Again, the T/S parameters can only be usefully when used for the low frequencies as I explained , just to compute relations between the driver unit and the volume of the enclosure. No one will look at the T/S parameters of tweeters because they are meaningless and usually not listed. I hope that your speakers have more drivers than just woofers ... And yes, Dave Wilson has been recently speaking about how he has chosen and developed the mid-frequency and the tweeter of the Alxandria X2 and XLF. As I saw the movies, I am supposed to know.

And yes, my opinions are just my opinions, supported by my experience (current and past) and readings, nothing else. Our regular readers know about it.

 

[microstrip]

Hello Micro

From what I got out of it was that you were basically saying that the T/S parameters were not as important. That is simply not the case. When they do QC on drivers one of the aspects measured is the T/S parameters. If FS VAS Q are not consistent it's going to screw up box alignment and in turn the frequency response.

As far as the attenuation I chose as being extreme it clearly is not. What you need to look at is not just the value series resistor but the attenuation from the pair. Have you never noticed attenuation scales on speakers with L-Pads?? I posted a schematic and voltage drive before but took it down to get personal info off of it. I will repost it.

Happy holidays to you as well and everyone else on the board.

Rob

Rob,

Thanks for the detail, we were debating how designers choose their drivers, not quality control.

Concerning the resistors, you should know that 90% of high-end speakers do not have any type of attenuation control, and if they have it is a minimal action. And yes, individual cases will be good to enlarge our knowledge, but are not enough to force a statistical statement.

 

[A.wayne]

Frantz,

Sometimes you love to play with the technical words even when you do not have the technical capability to understand what we are debating. A dangerous game. Again, the T/S parameters can only be usefully when used for the low frequencies as I explained , just to compute relations between the driver unit and the volume of the enclosure. No one will look at the T/S parameters of tweeters because they are meaningless and usually not listed. I hope that your speakers have more drivers than just woofers ... And yes, Dave Wilson has been recently speaking about how he has chosen and developed the mid-frequency and the tweeter of the Alxandria X2 and XLF. As I saw the movies, I am supposed to know.

And yes, my opinions are just my opinions, supported by my experience (current and past) and readings, nothing else. Our regular readers know about it.

This is much Closer to the truth MicroS, in actuality TS listed parameters are very rarely met by manufacturers ....

 

[mep]

This is much Closer to the truth MicroS, in actuality TS listed parameters are very rarely met by manufacturers ....

And how would you know that?

 

[A.wayne]

Rob,

I have to say I would not expect this comment from you Rob. IMHO quoting just part of a comment and misrepresenting the main idea is not nice. What I was saying is that there is much more about a speaker driver than its T/S parameters, and that no professional would choose the driver he uses just on T/S parameters. Please re-read the full debate.

Again you choose an extreme case. Typical values of series resistors in crossovers are around .5 to 1.5 ohm. Damping resistors that are user in parallel have much higher values - tens of ohms. Any one knowing basic ohms law and that typical value of the resistive part of drivers is around 6 ohm will be able to see how misleading is your -3dB or -6dB argument.

Your argument about linearity of a system being strained and pushed just because it is not highly efficient is also an old myth, based only in subjective findings, used mainly by supporters of horns or other type of high efficiency speakers. As FrantZ will surely tell you the laws of Physics do not support it.

+10

1 watt hi-efficiency deaf crowd logic .....

 

[A.wayne]

And how would you know that?

Bought and measured alot myself......

As a matter of fact you's pays extra to get them close
TS is a guidline , not reference, reference is what you get after voicing and selecting , then you pay xtra for them to meet specs specified ...

 

[mep]

Bought and measured alot myself......

So does that mean that you bought a bunch of speaker designs from manufacturers and then pulled the drivers out and measured their T/S parameters and then you measured the box they were in and they didn't meet the T/S parameters by virtue of the box size or do you mean you bought raw drivers and the raw drivers don't meet their own specs?

 

[A.wayne]

No Mep , i shopped at the same stores as WA and others, designed , build and then Sold them in the same stores ...

OEM Supplied drive units , Dig .....

 

[mep]

Yeah, I dig. So what you are really saying is that commercial off-the-shelf drivers may not meet their published T/S parameters.

 

[A.wayne]

None I'm aware of do , after selecting your drivers , you then measure and pay xtra for the drive units to be matched to your specs if necessary. After delivery the process is repeated going thru dozens to find a match Pr, after assembly, they are tested for matching again , at 1 ,2,4,8,16,32 watts , any deviation in FR IS INSPECTED , final test we used to do was a null test , speakers nose to nose ...

Then there are those unjustified exorbitant markups ....