Is the box speaker a dinosaur?
- Thread starter Gregadd
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Hello Micro
Looking at woofers and mids of course they are. Do you think they just pick a woofer at random without trying it in a box program like LEAP of Bass Box Pro as examples of software. They know what they are building and what size enclosure they plan on using. You can't even run a simulation without the T/S parameters. So what are you telling me here that the high end designers don't use box software to do their preliminary design work??
And just because they don't have user adjustable controls does not mean they don't use attenuation in the crossover. Almost all do. It's the norm. Why don't you post some schematics to see if there are any resistor pads on the drivers. That is the only way to know for sure. If the highend speakers you are talking about don't publish the schematics your point of view is complete speculation.
Rob
Exactly...you just need to install skylights in the ceiling with southern exposure...he he.
You knew what question I was referring to all along! I suspect you also know that the question, in any common context, refers to the extinction, not the period prior to extinction. You could have been talking about the heyday of Dino while referencing his extinction. In that case, the communication error would be expecting anyone understand you. Your further explanation is appreciated, and now that I understand your meaning, yes, of course, you're correct. The box speaker, which has dominated audio and been constantly improved and refined for six decades, could suddenly be swept into extinction by some catastrophic event -- I dunno, maybe a cosmic dust cloud from outer space that erases our collective memory of how to build a box? -- allowing a small, obscure audio species, unnoticed until now, to rise up and take over the listening experiences of millions of music lovers.
It could happen. We have earbuds.
Tim
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Hello Micro
Looking at woofers and mids of course they are. Do you think they just pick a woofer at random without trying it in a box program like LEAP of Bass Box Pro as examples of software. They know what they are building and what size enclosure they plan on using. You can't even run a simulation without the T/S parameters. So what are you telling me here that the high end designers don't use box software to do their preliminary design work??
And just because they don't have user adjustable controls does not mean they don't use attenuation in the crossover. Almost all do. It's the norm. Why don't you post some schematics to see if there are any resistor pads on the drivers. That is the only way to know for sure. If the highend speakers you are talking about don't publish the schematics your point of view is complete speculation.
Rob
Rob,
As I told Frank I am out of this T/S debate now and the parts I quoted in bold show very well why. Your post just skids the debate, and your style of "Do you think" adding something I never said is not acceptable in my view.
IMHO WBF is systematically loosing its best technical and though provoking contributors to the High End debate because of the primary opposition of anti High End brigade that use the same type of argument - you must prove behind doubt of the non believers and ex-believers or you are a speculative liar. Although I am not one of the experts I tried to present my points. I see now I also failed.
Happy Holiday.
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Call skepticism "anti-audiophile" if you must. Given the sheer volume of voodoo in this hobby, I suppose it's a fine line, but I'll have to take exception with the above. We have systematically lost our best technical contributors because they have been shouted down and occasionally driven away by the true believers here who reject anything that doesn't fit their pre-conceptions, regardless of the technical data.
Or perhaps this is a semantic argument as well. Maybe we disagree on the meaning of "technical."
Tim
PS - And by the way, the "anti-high end brigade" does not demand proof. We actually understand how difficult proof is to come by. But of those who present personal opinions unsupported by the technical data as superior to opinions that are supported by the technical data, we do occasionally ask for evidence.
I think my second thoughts must have been right; we don't agree on what the meaning of "technical" is.
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Sorry Micro didn't mean to offend you. As far as my post just skidding the debate I disagree and here's why. You cannot run simulations without the T/S parameters. If you have a program such as LEAP there are driver libraries for each OEM. If the driver of choice are not there you can enter them based on your own measurements or the manufacturers. I can't imagine any serious manufacturer without an up to date and comprehensive measurement and simulation software suite.
I have been in the DIY community for a while now and I have a CLIO measurement system a Woofer Tester 2 for T/S and box measurements. For software I have LEAP Crossover Shop and Enclosure Shop, Bass Box Pro and Win Isd. I am not alone by any means there are lots of DIY people out there with similar packages and some with quite a bit more.
I am just a lowly DIY guy but I use them when I am look at woofers. There is quite a bit of useful information right in the tables. Not only that but it takes minutes to try the simulations out.
Back to attenuation. I asked if you had schematics. You made some very general statements about resistor values as an example which frankly don't mean anything. You seem to not grasp that just looking at the value alone doesn't give you how much attenuation is actually occurring in the network. The schematics would clearly have the answer.
To me you seem to back away from that. In any case you didn't address it in any detail aside from your general statements. This is not the first time when pressed for hard facts you just ended the conversation or simply don't reply.
Have a Happy Holiday
Rob
Hello Micro
Looking at woofers and mids of course they are. Do you think they just pick a woofer at random without trying it in a box program like LEAP of Bass Box Pro as examples of software. They know what they are building and what size enclosure they plan on using. You can't even run a simulation without the T/S parameters. So what are you telling me here that the high end designers don't use box software to do their preliminary design work??
And just because they don't have user adjustable controls does not mean they don't use attenuation in the crossover. Almost all do. It's the norm. Why don't you post some schematics to see if there are any resistor pads on the drivers. That is the only way to know for sure. If the highend speakers you are talking about don't publish the schematics your point of view is complete speculation.
Rob
Rob,
I'm just a lowly nobody ( ask Mep) but it would be a waste of your time to run sims before recieving and testing drivers ..
Most of the time, info from the speaker manufacturers are way off , so let me repeat , the TS PARAMETERS very rarely match when taken from the library it would be a waste of time , to do so , no one building a sota speaker accepts those values , nothing is taken at face value , you order , recieve , test , after selecting and voicing then you sim ...
As to xovers , agree most would be using attenuation for matching .....
Regards
PS, i use Leap , the driver library is there for reference, take those numbers with lots of seasoning salt ...
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You knew what question I was referring to all along! I suspect you also know that the question, in any common context, refers to the extinction, not the period prior to extinction. You could have been talking about the heyday of Dino while referencing his extinction. In that case, the communication error would be expecting anyone understand you. Your further explanation is appreciated, and now that I understand your meaning, yes, of course, you're correct. The box speaker, which has dominated audio and been constantly improved and refined for six decades, could suddenly be swept into extinction by some catastrophic event -- I dunno, maybe a cosmic dust cloud from outer space that erases our collective memory of how to build a box? -- allowing a small, obscure audio species, unnoticed until now, to rise up and take over the listening experiences of millions of music lovers.
It could happen. We have earbuds.
Tim
I suppose some people need a more in depth explanation than others. You did not seem to be bothered at all by the, "Do We Need Panel Speakers ?" thread. I wonder why this one got your goat?. No one suggested we would suddenly forget how to make a box speaker. Such is not the nature of obsolescence.Perhaps you are not acquainted with the tactic of posing a provocative question to spark a debate?
Have we perfected the box speaker? Such trained minds like Siegfried Linkwitz does not care for box designs. Alon Wolf spent untold effort in designing an aluminum box. Cabinet resonance is the subject of untold expertise and effort. Of course dogma is never hampered by reality. The creator of Sony speaker design stated the problem can never be completely solved.
As to who is to being shouted down, well I'll let the readers decide.
The headphone juggernaut is real and nut just limited to i phones. I have a pair of earbuds I purchased from the Dollar Store and they are quite good.. Martin Logan just introduced a headphone. hpsoundings has a section on Personal Audio. Chesky records has gone binaural; a media that requires headphones.. The last I checked you are a member of the headphone club.
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I'm not bothered by either thread, I'm just playing. And if you are truly offended by such benign teasing in the wake of such a clear logical error well, my apologies. I meant no offense. But playing with your logical fallacy was my only purpose; I've no dog in this hunt. I've heard panel speakers I liked, in spite of their weaknesses, and the same goes for boxes. Personally, I think the aforementioned Linkwitz probably has the best compromise, but it has its weaknesses as well. It's all compromises.
I see you jumped across threads. Before the readers decide, we'll need to settle the issues of what is technical and what is an expert. I'm not holding my breath.
Tim
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Rob,
I'm just a lowly nobody ( ask Mep) but it would be a waste of your time to run sims before recieving and testing drivers ..
Most of the time, info from the speaker manufacturers are way off , so let me repeat , the TS PARAMETERS very rarely match when taken from the libary it would be a waste of time , to do so , no one building a sota speaker accepts those values , nothing is taken at face value ,...
Regards
PS, i use Leap , the driver library is there for reference, take those numbers with lots of seasoning salt ...
So A. Wayne
Let me try to understand your point here: T/S parameters as stated by the manufactures are not trustworthy. I never disputed that fact. The values from manufacturers are likely optimistic or inaccurate. I understand that.
What are these parameters called? Thiele Small. My point throughout this exchange. I never said that the value of the manufacturer were accurate. I repeated time and time again that Designers use T/S parameters. To me that was a simple, logical fact. Now you come back and admit they use T/S parameters not those of the manufacturers , rather those they measure .. T/S parameters regardless wherever they were measured or certified.. They remain .. Thiele Small parameters .. All that trial at condescension to come to that
of course with your own derived by either your experience and instruments T/S parameters ..
It is as if telling me that when a car manufacturer says a car top speed is 150 MPH and when measured the owner find it to be 130 that now this parameter is no longer called "Speed"
I rest my case .. really out of the discussion. Now you made my point.
@Greg
You must admit that the point about Dinosaurs being dominant and now not is a logical stretch ... It looks like cars will not have wheel by the time box speakers are truly extent
Happy Holiday to you All
Frantz,
You twist words , meanings ,questions and answers, i don't want to go over it again , less leave it at that and move forward ....
DSP was introduced to me in 94 , it had merits then and it is better today , IMO it is still not the way , the best is still with an Hybrid format , as there are merits to DSP in adjusting bass , analog xovers for the rest .
I'm not oppose to technology , i favor no one topology , merits abound in each , so much so I'm in favor of Hybrid technology for amps, pre's and dynamic closed box / open dipoles for speakers and yes there is a place for digital, I'm also aware that the best sonics is the shortest path , because of this inserting stuff in the signal path leads to sonic degradation.. This is true for any and all paths in the reproduction chain, true for direct recordings, pre's, amps, speakers , signal processing screws this up big time, will it or can it make your system better , absolutely , but it was screwed up in the first place to begin with ...
With all the advancement in speaker software and sims geared toward box speakers only means they will continue to get better and more accurate , accuracy doesn't guarantee intimacy, so there will always be other types , the box speaker will continue on it's path ....
Panel speakers will be the ones in need of protection ....
Regards,
You twist words , meanings ,questions and answers, i don't want to go over it again , less leave it at that and move forward ....
DSP was introduced to me in 94 , it had merits then and it is better today , IMO it is still not the way , the best is still with an Hybrid format , as there are merits to DSP in adjusting bass , analog xovers for the rest .
I'm not oppose to technology , i favor no one topology , merits abound in each , so much so I'm in favor of Hybrid technology for amps, pre's and dynamic closed box / open dipoles for speakers and yes there is a place for digital, I'm also aware that the best sonics is the shortest path , because of this inserting stuff in the signal path leads to sonic degradation.. This is true for any and all paths in the reproduction chain, true for direct recordings, pre's, amps, speakers , signal processing screws this up big time, will it or can it make your system better , absolutely , but it was screwed up in the first place to begin with ...
With all the advancement in speaker software and sims geared toward box speakers only means they will continue to get better and more accurate , accuracy doesn't guarantee intimacy, so there will always be other types , the box speaker will continue on it's path ....
Panel speakers will be the ones in need of protection ....
Regards,
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Tim you have named the one of Lnkwitz Orion before as your dream speakers. I assume because it is "active." Nevertheless it is a total a package.
I'll be happy to defend any substantive point I make to the best of my lay ability. I just don't like to repeat myself. I also reserve the right to "jump across threads" for prior inconsistent (or consistent) statements.
I'll be happy to defend any substantive point I make to the best of my lay ability. I just don't like to repeat myself. I also reserve the right to "jump across threads" for prior inconsistent (or consistent) statements.
I'm sure boxes outsell panel speakers all day long , just last week i tried to help a friend and suggested 1.7 with subs, they took one look and said no way , they look like bloody doors .
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Martin Logan has a distribution channel which "transcends the audiophile market" and that would be Best Buy. I had thought they prostituted themselves when they went that route but what do I know. They probably get to sell to the "real" audiophiles with their more upscale products through the more traditional "high end " retailers and the rest of the folks via Best Buy.
True dat ,
ML always had distribution thru similar chain stores , they used to be with Sound Advice , before best buy ....
An associate wanted to hear the new wilson alexia and asked if i would tag along, the dealer wanted us to make an appointment , blah blah blah , we had a business meeting to fly out to , he was flying in from centro- america , he had two days here and is currently a Wilson owner (watt/puppy) and strongly thinking of upgrading and here it is the same BS to hear this system.
If best buy had Wilson , we could walk in and touch ....
I cant wait for the rest of these heediots to go, they serve no purpose other than to stroke their ego's if i cant buy direct, ebay or off the Gon , i don't buy ...
Regards ,
ML always had distribution thru similar chain stores , they used to be with Sound Advice , before best buy ....
An associate wanted to hear the new wilson alexia and asked if i would tag along, the dealer wanted us to make an appointment , blah blah blah , we had a business meeting to fly out to , he was flying in from centro- america , he had two days here and is currently a Wilson owner (watt/puppy) and strongly thinking of upgrading and here it is the same BS to hear this system.
If best buy had Wilson , we could walk in and touch ....
I cant wait for the rest of these heediots to go, they serve no purpose other than to stroke their ego's if i cant buy direct, ebay or off the Gon , i don't buy ...
Regards ,
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