IS there an absolute sound?

[Robh3606]

Sorry Rob, can't agree about dynamics on movies You and I know that movies soundtracks are compressed so as to "sound louder." There's no real dynamics to speak of. The producer and director purposely makes those "exciting scenes" louder. It's actually more annoying that real.

Hello Myles

Sure you are not confusing the Loudness War in commercial recordings with soundtracks?? I have a couple of questions for you.

Do you have an HT set-up in your home that can reach THX reference levels??

When's the last time you took out a peak reading spl meter that stores the min and max readings?? With that type of a meter you can easilly see what the actual dynamic range is of your system for that software.

I have many times and it easy to find sound tracks with at least 50db of dynamic range. Try and find some recorded music that can match that. Not so easy.

Rob

 

[Robert]

My feeling is that a properly set up system , among other things, should be a time machine. You are not going to bring a full orchestra into your sound room but the system should sometimes transport you to the place the music was recorded.
This can't happen with many recordings but it does happen with some great ones.
To the gentleman that said you can't do space with a two channel system al i ca n say is that your system doesn't work if you can't.

Ah, feels like we've been down this road before.

There are those who won't believe, those who will believe, and those who know. Let me say it is possible, and two channels is all it takes to create a sound that provides the illusion of a performance wrapping around you. It is possible to have an amazing representation of an orchestra in your living room. As in, the walls have disappeared, and you are sitting in the actual space.

Yes, you can also have a cathedral in your living room. St. Florian church, to be precise. Boulez conducted Bruckner's 8th with the Vienna Philharmonic in a church, and it is an immersive experience. I can hear the sound coming from the sides and the sense of space. There's a brief video on youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4VMvdQuaZnc (or search Boulez and Bruckner).

As Myles says, many have never heard such a system. Eliot has. Frank has. I have.

I still recall several years ago, a demo in the basement at GTT Audio. Big room, big Kharma speakers, big amplifiers. I put in Wagner's Gotterdamerung. I swear to God the entire orchestra and chorus were in the room. It was uncanny. I could feel their presence. They had weight. I don't think I'll ever forget it. It was absolute sound. It was probably better than my system, but I cannot fit big Kharma speakers in my room, so what can you do?

When people come to listen to my system, I hear tales of their first properly set-up Avalon experience. Even if it was 10 or 15 years ago, they remember the epiphany of having an image that totally locks into 3D space.

Again, speakers, source, and incredible attention to power. You need resolution, full bandwidth, and low distortion. Speaker positioning matters, too. As little as one degree or one millimeter makes a difference. My sweet spot is one foot or else the image doesn't lock.

 

[Robh3606]

Let me say it is possible, and two channels is all it takes to create a sound that provides the illusion of a performance wrapping around you.

Hello Robert

OK I have had that happen but it's recording specific and you can get a very nice illusion.

As in, the walls have disappeared, and you are sitting in the actual space.

You may feel that way but in reality all the psychoacoustic clues available from your own room can't match the ones in a real cathedral. You may get a very pleasant illusion but it's clearly not the same as the real thing. I have had that happen where you loose yourself and you are there. More with multichannel though especailly with live material. It's great fun!

Rob

 

[Elliot G.]

Ah, feels like we've been down this road before.

There are those who won't believe, those who will believe, and those who know. Let me say it is possible, and two channels is all it takes to create a sound that provides the illusion of a performance wrapping around you. It is possible to have an amazing representation of an orchestra in your living room. As in, the walls have disappeared, and you are sitting in the actual space.

Yes, you can also have a cathedral in your living room. St. Florian church, to be precise. Boulez conducted Bruckner's 8th with the Vienna Philharmonic in a church, and it is an immersive experience. I can hear the sound coming from the sides and the sense of space. There's a brief video on youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4VMvdQuaZnc (or search Boulez and Bruckner).

As Myles says, many have never heard such a system. Eliot has. Frank has. I have.

I still recall several years ago, a demo in the basement at GTT Audio. Big room, big Kharma speakers, big amplifiers. I put in Wagner's Gotterdamerung. I swear to God the entire orchestra and chorus were in the room. It was uncanny. I could feel their presence. They had weight. I don't think I'll ever forget it. It was absolute sound. It was probably better than my system, but I cannot fit big Kharma speakers in my room, so what can you do?

When people come to listen to my system, I hear tales of their first properly set-up Avalon experience. Even if it was 10 or 15 years ago, they remember the epiphany of having an image that totally locks into 3D space.

Again, speakers, source, and incredible attention to power. You need resolution, full bandwidth, and low distortion. Speaker positioning matters, too. As little as one degree or one millimeter makes a difference. My sweet spot is one foot or else the image doesn't lock.

The overwhelming majority ( i am being kind here) of the systems I have listened to are not even close. I have NEVER, I repeat Never heard anything near this experience at a show yet many critics want to argue about the sound at shows. I don't want to sound condescending nor be an elitist but there are so many people in and around the audio business that think they know and they don't.
If you have experienced this as you said then you know and you realize that magic is possible.
Having spent almost 40 years in the business and having listen to thousands tell me many stories one realizes that for the highest percentage of listeners have not had this experience.
I don't know how to fix that and have discussed ideas with many groups but there is not a really good solution.
It would be great to have a system capable of this on permanent display that anyone could hear whether for free or a fee but that is as likely as having dinner with bigfoot or the Loch Ness monster.
Getting our Industry to agree on anything is as you all know impossible.

 

[garylkoh]

Hand held mic for a test recording? The phase would be all over the place over time, since no hand can hold a mic really still.

Not a recording for system testing, but for subjective evaluation. The mic was not even held still - it was moved with the notes being played. Another way to make this recording might have been to place binaural mics on the head of the pianist, then we would get the pianist's perspective. If we had a mic on a stand a few feet off from the piano, it might have been much more of a piano sound that audiophiles maybe expect (or not). I've seen how pianos are miked by a couple of different recording engineers and they all do it different. Most of them have used different mics and mixed.

 

[MylesBAstor]

Ah, feels like we've been down this road before.

There are those who won't believe, those who will believe, and those who know. Let me say it is possible, and two channels is all it takes to create a sound that provides the illusion of a performance wrapping around you. It is possible to have an amazing representation of an orchestra in your living room. As in, the walls have disappeared, and you are sitting in the actual space.

Yes, you can also have a cathedral in your living room. St. Florian church, to be precise. Boulez conducted Bruckner's 8th with the Vienna Philharmonic in a church, and it is an immersive experience. I can hear the sound coming from the sides and the sense of space. There's a brief video on youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4VMvdQuaZnc (or search Boulez and Bruckner).

As Myles says, many have never heard such a system. Eliot has. Frank has. I have.

I still recall several years ago, a demo in the basement at GTT Audio. Big room, big Kharma speakers, big amplifiers. I put in Wagner's Gotterdamerung. I swear to God the entire orchestra and chorus were in the room. It was uncanny. I could feel their presence. They had weight. I don't think I'll ever forget it. It was absolute sound. It was probably better than my system, but I cannot fit big Kharma speakers in my room, so what can you do?

When people come to listen to my system, I hear tales of their first properly set-up Avalon experience. Even if it was 10 or 15 years ago, they remember the epiphany of having an image that totally locks into 3D space.

Again, speakers, source, and incredible attention to power. You need resolution, full bandwidth, and low distortion. Speaker positioning matters, too. As little as one degree or one millimeter makes a difference. My sweet spot is one foot or else the image doesn't lock.

And might I add that Arian Jansen has developed a system of creating a surround sound effect from two channels. Heard it on 15 ips R2R tape at CES. Unfortunately room was too noisy, as were most at CES, to profer an opinion.

 

[Robh3606]

Hello Myles

And might I add that Arian Jansen has developed a system of creating a surround sound effect from two channels.

Have you ever heard anything recorded using Q Sound? It's quite amazing what they can do with it. You can get wrapped in sound with it. From the sides behind and so on all from 2 channels.

Rob

 

[steve williams]

There was a time when I collected disks in Q-sound for that very reason. It seems little or nothing is done in Q-sound these days

 

[mep]

Mark! I would say I am pretty versatile but please try to remember I do not hate stereo. I just understand its limitations.
Tom

Tom-Sorry I keep mistaking your stereo bashing for hating stereo.

 

[Ron Party]

In this thread, like so, so many others, people seem to offer their own personal opinions as fact. Absence of humility is in full display.

Is it not the case that 2 people can demo the exact same (2 or 5+ channel) system from the same seat and come away with different takes on whether the system sounds *good* -- e.g., the recent discussion regarding the Q7, analog vs. digital, panel vs. box speaker, etc. -- let alone whether it does or does not create a credible facsimile of the real event?

Reference to psychoacoustics, yes, science for those that continue to abhor the word, certainly would be helpful. A discussion of preference, something that Tom Mallin first discussed in this forum about a year and half ago, regarding whether one wants the musicians in one's room or whether one wants to be transported to venue where the performance originally occurred, certainly would be helpful.

Would not intellectual honesty in this discussion be focused on the individual and not on the reproduction system? I would proffer that it is the individual's goal in experiencing reproduced music and, quite significantly, the individual's willingness at some level, conscious or sub, to be fooled, that are most determinitive.

I have experienced some of the most SOTA systems ever assembled, yet I have never, ever be sufficiently fooled by a 2 channel system. I have found repeatedly that a multi-channel system gets me closer, yet even that falls far short. Others express the opposite. Does that make my take or another's correct as a matter of fact? If so, by what metric(s)?

 

[Gregadd]

I've said it before. There is an absolute sound. Whether we can achieve it an particular room with an given system, with any given system and ny given piece of music is a different story. I heard near holographic imaging on some stereos with some music.
I disagree with the multichannel sound. To me that is tricker and sometimes annoying. I'll pass on any CYA qualifications.

 

[microstrip]

(...) I have experienced some of the most SOTA systems ever assembled, yet I have never, ever be sufficiently fooled by a 2 channel system. I have found repeatedly that a multi-channel system gets me closer, yet even that falls far short. Others express the opposite. Does that make my take or another's correct as a matter of fact? If so, by what metric(s)?

Can I ask what you consider to bee fooled by a system ? It would be an interesting start.

 

[NorthStar]

This, plus few easy questions ...

There was a time when I collected disks in Q-sound for that very reason. It seems little or nothing is done in Q-sound these days

I luv those, got a half dozen or so. My favorite is Roger Waters - 'Amused to Death'. :b

______________________

Phase; from the loudspeaker's crossovers, to the full panoply of electronics (sources, preamp, amp, speaker wiring, interconnects, electrical circuits, power conditioners, purifiers, etc.), to the music recordings themselves, the mediums (hard physical & soft cyberspace), the record processings, the machine recorders, the microphones, all the wiring, the rooms where they were recorded, the rooms where they are played, the phase of the room's acoustics, and all ..; is that count for somethin'?
Does it have to be all in unison? From way at the beginning to way at the end? All in, all out?

And how can we be sure? How do we know that somewhere down the river the current has not changed?
Can we trust our own ears?
Is the Absolute Sound like a religion? Without concrete absolution?

What makes one to say this and another to say that?
...One to practice this and another to practice that?
...One to believe this and another to believe that?

Ok, Sound, we know what it is. But what about Absolute?

That's right!, I was thinking exactly the same myself... :b

 

[andromedaaudio]

I would not call holographic imaging absolute sound , its merely a side effect from stereo reproduction .

I've said it before. There is an absolute sound. Whether we can achieve it an particular room with an given system, with any given system and ny given piece of music is a different story. I heard near holographic imaging on some stereos with some music.
I disagree with the multichannel sound. To me that is tricker and sometimes annoying. I'll pass on any CYA qualifications.

 

[steve williams]

I luv those, got a half dozen or so. My favorite is Roger Waters - 'Amused to Death'.

I agree. I have the Sony Gold 20 bit special edition of it in Q-sound

My next favorite is Immaculate Collection by Madonna

Although Pink Floyd never recorded in Q-sound IIRC, their music had many passages with similarities to Q-sound

 

[MylesBAstor]

Hello Myles



Have you ever heard anything recorded using Q Sound? It's quite amazing what they can do with it. You can get wrapped in sound with it. From the sides behind and so on all from 2 channels.

Rob

Only one I remember is the Amused To Death mentioned by Steve.

 

[fas42]

Can I ask what you consider to bee fooled by a system ? It would be an interesting start.

There are many aspects to it, the one that "got" me, when it first happened, was that the speakers, very ordinary box affairs, completely disappeared. In spite of what Tim considers to be reasonable behaviour for such devices, that was the subjective experience. And this is classic example of Ron's psychoacoustics: I didn't decide to be "fooled", but my mind was. Sighted or unsighted, makes no difference. And unsighted means closing your eye, blindfolding yourself so to speak, and trying to point to where the sound is coming from, playing the "where's the tweeter?" game.

Now, I'm sure that once you achieve a certain level of being "fooled", and this can be achieved in different ways, there are many subtle variations of it. What I find particularly worthwhile is chasing the goal of having all recordings produce the sense of space, which remarkably enough can even be done on old, 1930's big band performances, for example. Very hard work, but achievable. The key is that the system has to be performing to an inch of its life: the slightest defficiency will undo the illusion, and it will just sound like a crappy old recording ...

Frank

 

[NorthStar]

I agree. I have the Sony Gold 20 bit special edition of it in Q-sound

My next favorite is Immaculate Collection by Madonna

Although Pink Floyd never recorded in Q-sound IIRC, their music had many passages with similarities to Q-sound

'Pulse' (red light blinking from the 2-disc CD set) by Pink Floyd was also recorded in Q sound.
But after Roger Waters (ATD), my second favorite is Sting - 'The Soul Cages'.

The Madonna one is cool for the effects for sure, but not a huge fan of her vocals.

______________________

Steve, I still have a good memory, and I know we discussed this subject before.
But here's again; this Stereo CD was not recorded in Q sound, but nonetheless it has somethin' special about it that surrounds you in a different climate, a different perspective that can be enrapturing (is for me):



* Click on the picture cover for info and free music samples.

 

[Robh3606]

Here is the Q Sound album list. To bad there is not more

http://www.qsound.com/spotlight/users/recording-artists.htm

I have found repeatedly that a multi-channel system gets me closer, yet even that falls far short.

Hello Ron

I have had a couple of instances where I got so wrapped up in things I felt I was in the crowd. I agree about Multichannel if anythings going to get you there I think that's the best bet.

Rob

 

[NorthStar]

Thanks for that link Rob. :b I got eleven.