Happy to help.Thank you. -PhilHey Cobra--Luv ya Style man!--telling it as it is--Keith's a lucky dude to have you in his camp
Keep up the great posts, and get him cooking' with gas!
BruceD
KeithR's "Dream Speaker" Search
- Thread starter KeithR
- Start date
I think the Lamm hybrid is a practical way to get some tube liquidity.
Doubtful in my mind. But if the Lamms are better, Keith will need to keep the Ampzillas for backup, for the inevitable frequent servicing of the Lamms. Also, I think the Lamm is more influenced by its MOSFETs output stage than by its minimal tubes. I've been hearing about the promise of MOSFETs for 45 years. It's a promise yet to be fulfilled. -Phil
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Fascinating Phil. In the course of a few plain speaking posts you've constructively criticised three brands that are normally universally revered by the cognoscenti here, YG, Lamm and D'Agostino. Indeed all I ever read here is effusive praise for these brands. So to read comments 180 to those is quite an eye opener.
Ha! indeed well put Marc -but at least Cobra has some sound and informative reasons for his comments thus--very refreshing in my book-
!BruceD
It actually means some people ( i dont mention names)have systems so good and transparent that they are able to reject even the most expensive pôpular brands as being mere mediocre .
Some can even detect whether a orange green or purple fuse is used in the powersupply , let alone hundreds of kinds of different cable sounds
I can only strive to be on that level someday ,... but i am afraid it will never happen
Some can even detect whether a orange green or purple fuse is used in the powersupply , let alone hundreds of kinds of different cable sounds
I can only strive to be on that level someday ,... but i am afraid it will never happen
Also interesting that Keith may settle on high profile higher priced "take no prisoners" ethos spkrs, and pair them w decidedly Blue Collar priced unfashionable under the radar amps.
Reminds me of my demo experience loving the seriously overengineered and uber spendy £80k Cessaro Liszts horns pwrd by...£5k Bakoon SS. Still my fave horns demo by far.
Reminds me of my demo experience loving the seriously overengineered and uber spendy £80k Cessaro Liszts horns pwrd by...£5k Bakoon SS. Still my fave horns demo by far.
Well, my experience is different concerning the Lamm hybrids. I have got two pairs of used M1.2R, early serial number and they were never serviced, except replacing the tube. I fully measured it when I got it and as Lamm publishes complete data, including noise and distortion spectra at their site I could check they measured as new after almost 10 years. Lamm hybrids are built to last with little maintenance - as I was getting them in Europe, far from the factory, I did some homework before buying.
IMHO such prejudice against a particular type of device, such as MOSFET, in high-end only shows little knowledge about the why's in electronics.
Preference is subjective and can be discussed in a forum but respected - Lamm's surely have a sound characteristic as any other brand - however objective claims should be proved with data.
Well let’s admit no-one ever wrote The Silence of the non-descript and musically murderous Italian Class D amp... it is and always will be the fabulous and wonderous Silence of the Lamms. Marvellous amps.
Purple, I'm pretty good at. Orange, sometimes I miss.It actually means some people ( i dont mention names)have systems so good and transparent that they are able to reject even the most expensive pôpular brands as being mere mediocre .
Some can even detect whether a orange green or purple fuse is used in the powersupply , let alone hundreds of kinds of different cable sounds
I can only strive to be on that level someday ,... but i am afraid it will never happen
I'm brand insensitive. Example: About 10 years ago Zu made a speaker called Essence, incorporating a ribbon supertweeter. Not only was I then (and still) a Zu crossoverless advocate, but also personally friendly with the founders. I thought the Essence was a big fat mistake for them. But it was THE Zu speaker that got the cover of Stereophile!. At the time, Sean Casey had a cofounder in the company who pushed for making a "hifi" speaker. They succeeded. I dissented publicly. The person running Zu then, a hired CEO (not Sean Casey), threatened to sue me. It made no difference to me. My view of the Essence held, even while I was able to unconditionally endorse the rest of the line.
Circa 1986 or 87, I had a close friend who was a high end audio dealer. One day I was at his store when his first pair of Duntech Sovereigns showed up. He was a Threshold (Pass), Krell, Jadis, Magneplanar, Apogee, ProAc, NYAL, VPI, McIntosh, Conrad-Johnson, et al dealer. Those big ridiculous towers got wheeled in with great anticipation. Absolute Sound was shouting praises. Stereophile too. Unpacked. Setup. People raved. But all their artificiality and ludicrousness was immediately exposed for their anathema to music, at least to me. But cash didn't care. I can't count the number of people who later, after I was well out of the business, rang my phone to find a path out of the "most expensive popular brands" they committed to, when they realized the musical mediocrity of what they bought, even if material build was very high.
Krell almost single-handedly broke what was viable about the high-end audio economy in the '80s. That masculine-audio-jewelry-regardless-of-sound aesthetic funneled money but broke the relationship between high fidelity, customers, and gear. After that, a consumer couldn't trust that spending delivered commensurate music. The consumer could expect that expenditure commanded respect from certain people who often didn't know anything at all about musical fidelity. The two were not the same, and that remains so. I have half a century in this interest; from what I hear, fewer than half of the brands in what we call high-end audio have any real interest in music reproduction fidelity. Among those that do, there's a lot of room for debate on approaches. YG has a point-of -view, and I think that's good. I think the same designer pushing for same goals through different means would likely accomplish even more. But he's among the good guys in this.
You can hear what I say I hear. You just have to train your brain and pay attention. Simple as that. There is no such thing as a Golden Ear. It's the attentive brain that matters. Nothing else.
As the late, great Tasso Spanos (Opus One, Pittsburgh, PA) once said to me, "...Phil, if you pay enough attention to what Henry Kloss made great in a KLH Radio (later, Advent), you will understand what will be great at 100X that cost...." If the meaty midrange isn't natural, holistic and right, nothing else matters. YG could get it right focusing on getting the meaty midrange right without throwing away the bass performance and top end he's already attained.
Phil
I didn't say I have prejudice against MOSFETs. I said the promise, decades long, has been unfulfilled. If someone makes a musically credible MOSFET amp, I'm all in.
Phil
Musically murderous. Pretty good. Hear them side by side with your choice of competitor and then judge, up or down in direct comparison. The Ampzilla fares well. You certainly will find superior amps at higher cost. But you can exceed Lamms too. -Phil
Phil, wasn't that the CEO who nearly bankrupted Zu? As relayed on their website at the time.Purple, I'm pretty good at. Orange, sometimes I miss.
I'm brand insensitive. Example: About 10 years ago Zu made a speaker called Essence, incorporating a ribbon supertweeter. Not only was I then (and still) a Zu crossoverless advocate, but also personally friendly with the founders. I thought the Essence was a big fat mistake for them. But it was THE Zu speaker that got the cover of Stereophile!. At the time, Sean Casey had a cofounder in the company who pushed for making a "hifi" speaker. They succeeded. I dissented publicly. The person running Zu then, a hired CEO (not Sean Casey), threatened to sue me. It made no difference to me. My view of the Essence held, even while I was able to unconditionally endorse the rest of the line.
Circa 1986 or 87, I had a close friend who was a high end audio dealer. One day I was at his store when his first pair of Duntech Sovereigns showed up. He was a Threshold (Pass), Krell, Jadis, Magneplanar, Apogee, ProAc, NYAL, VPI, McIntosh, Conrad-Johnson, et al dealer. Those big ridiculous towers got wheeled in with great anticipation. Absolute Sound was shouting praises. Stereophile too. Unpacked. Setup. People raved. But all their artificiality and ludicrousness was immediately exposed for their anathema to music, at least to me. But cash didn't care. I can't count the number of people who later, after I was well out of the business, rang my phone to find a path out of the "most expensive popular brands" they committed to, when they realized the musical mediocrity of what they bought, even if material build was very high.
Krell almost single-handedly broke what was viable about the high-end audio economy in the '80s. That masculine-audio-jewelry-regardless-of-sound aesthetic funneled money but broke the relationship between high fidelity, customers, and gear. After that, a consumer couldn't trust that spending delivered commensurate music. The consumer could expect that expenditure commanded respect from certain people who often didn't know anything at all about musical fidelity. The two were not the same, and that remains so. I have half a century in this interest; from what I hear, fewer than half of the brands in what we call high-end audio have any real interest in music reproduction fidelity. Among those that do, there's a lot of room for debate on approaches. YG has a point-of -view, and I think that's good. I think the same designer pushing for same goals through different means would likely accomplish even more. But he's among the good guys in this.
You can hear what I say I hear. You just have to train your brain and pay attention. Simple as that. There is no such thing as a Golden Ear. It's the attentive brain that matters. Nothing else.
As the late, great Tasso Spanos (Opus One, Pittsburgh, PA) once said to me, "...Phil, if you pay enough attention to what Henry Kloss made great in a KLH Radio (later, Advent), you will understand what will be great at 100X that cost...." If the meaty midrange isn't natural, holistic and right, nothing else matters. YG could get it right focusing on getting the meaty midrange right without throwing away the bass performance and top end he's already attained.
Phil
Purple, I'm pretty good at. Orange, sometimes I miss.
I'm brand insensitive. Example: About 10 years ago Zu made a speaker called Essence, incorporating a ribbon supertweeter. Not only was I then (and still) a Zu crossoverless advocate, but also personally friendly with the founders. I thought the Essence was a big fat mistake for them. But it was THE Zu speaker that got the cover of Stereophile!. At the time, Sean Casey had a cofounder in the company who pushed for making a "hifi" speaker. They succeeded. I dissented publicly. The person running Zu then, a hired CEO (not Sean Casey), threatened to sue me. It made no difference to me. My view of the Essence held, even while I was able to unconditionally endorse the rest of the line.
Circa 1986 or 87, I had a close friend who was a high end audio dealer. One day I was at his store when his first pair of Duntech Sovereigns showed up. He was a Threshold (Pass), Krell, Jadis, Magneplanar, Apogee, ProAc, NYAL, VPI, McIntosh, Conrad-Johnson, et al dealer. Those big ridiculous towers got wheeled in with great anticipation. Absolute Sound was shouting praises. Stereophile too. Unpacked. Setup. People raved. But all their artificiality and ludicrousness was immediately exposed for their anathema to music, at least to me. But cash didn't care. I can't count the number of people who later, after I was well out of the business, rang my phone to find a path out of the "most expensive popular brands" they committed to, when they realized the musical mediocrity of what they bought, even if material build was very high.
Krell almost single-handedly broke what was viable about the high-end audio economy in the '80s. That masculine-audio-jewelry-regardless-of-sound aesthetic funneled money but broke the relationship between high fidelity, customers, and gear. After that, a consumer couldn't trust that spending delivered commensurate music. The consumer could expect that expenditure commanded respect from certain people who often didn't know anything at all about musical fidelity. The two were not the same, and that remains so. I have half a century in this interest; from what I hear, fewer than half of the brands in what we call high-end audio have any real interest in music reproduction fidelity. Among those that do, there's a lot of room for debate on approaches. YG has a point-of -view, and I think that's good. I think the same designer pushing for same goals through different means would likely accomplish even more. But he's among the good guys in this.
You can hear what I say I hear. You just have to train your brain and pay attention. Simple as that. There is no such thing as a Golden Ear. It's the attentive brain that matters. Nothing else.
As the late, great Tasso Spanos (Opus One, Pittsburgh, PA) once said to me, "...Phil, if you pay enough attention to what Henry Kloss made great in a KLH Radio (later, Advent), you will understand what will be great at 100X that cost...." If the meaty midrange isn't natural, holistic and right, nothing else matters. YG could get it right focusing on getting the meaty midrange right without throwing away the bass performance and top end he's already attained.
Phil
I even know audioplhiles who can tell what type of solder was used in the X over ,...
Phil your ¨ preference ¨ is clear you dont like X overs and you have a strong opinion , seems to me only ZU / owners listeners can hear the diffs in fuses
Regarding the below. A question for the gear-heads on this thread.
https://www.yg-acoustics.com/a-third-record-breaking-devialet-sam-measurement-for-yg-acoustics
In 2015, DEVIALET’s measurements of YG Acoustics™ Hailey 1.2 shattered all expectations of how well a speaker can perform before DSP correction.
In 2016, YG Acoustics Sonja 1.2 exceeded even Hailey’s previously-unmatched performance, with a time-coherent response that tracks the music signal with unparalleled precision.
Now, YG Acoustics Sonja 2.2 shows the world what can be achieved through meticulous research and development. Sonja 2.2’s graph is the closest to “input equals output” of all 900+ speakers that DEVIALET has measured to date. In addition, Sonja 2.2 achieves subsonic performance (below 20 Hz) as per DEVIALET’s strict measurement-standards.
Many thanks to our distinguished colleagues at DEVIALET for conducting the measurements, and continuously expanding their enormous list of Ready-for-SAM speakers.
https://www.yg-acoustics.com/a-third-record-breaking-devialet-sam-measurement-for-yg-acoustics
In 2015, DEVIALET’s measurements of YG Acoustics™ Hailey 1.2 shattered all expectations of how well a speaker can perform before DSP correction.
In 2016, YG Acoustics Sonja 1.2 exceeded even Hailey’s previously-unmatched performance, with a time-coherent response that tracks the music signal with unparalleled precision.
Now, YG Acoustics Sonja 2.2 shows the world what can be achieved through meticulous research and development. Sonja 2.2’s graph is the closest to “input equals output” of all 900+ speakers that DEVIALET has measured to date. In addition, Sonja 2.2 achieves subsonic performance (below 20 Hz) as per DEVIALET’s strict measurement-standards.
Many thanks to our distinguished colleagues at DEVIALET for conducting the measurements, and continuously expanding their enormous list of Ready-for-SAM speakers.
Andromeda, Phil has never once mentioned fuses. That's me. So not 100%, more like 50%.
There are guys out there who claim their cd's sound radically different w the cdp display switched off.
Those who hear massive changes w spkrs toed in differently by mm's, and VTA on lp's by tenths of mm's.
Or a listening seat higher or lower by an inch or two.
Or Tibetan bells dangling in the room.
I guess for listeners like me and Phil, there has to be a reason we've moved from the usual suspects. And greater shove and tonal density and mids seemingly predicated on lack of xover is a key reason. Others, maybe the majority, don't (not) hear this, or maybe it's not a priority.
Certainly Keith is a good person to ask. He's progressing from xoverless Zus to minimal xover Devores to xover heavy YGs.
There are guys out there who claim their cd's sound radically different w the cdp display switched off.
Those who hear massive changes w spkrs toed in differently by mm's, and VTA on lp's by tenths of mm's.
Or a listening seat higher or lower by an inch or two.
Or Tibetan bells dangling in the room.
I guess for listeners like me and Phil, there has to be a reason we've moved from the usual suspects. And greater shove and tonal density and mids seemingly predicated on lack of xover is a key reason. Others, maybe the majority, don't (not) hear this, or maybe it's not a priority.
Certainly Keith is a good person to ask. He's progressing from xoverless Zus to minimal xover Devores to xover heavy YGs.
So basically he is a deserter ,lol .
I think phil does quite some effort to get him back in line again
.I think phil does quite some effort to get him back in line again
"After that, a consumer couldn't trust that spending delivered commensurate music. The consumer could expect that expenditure commanded respect from certain people who often didn't know anything at all about musical fidelity. The two were not the same, and that remains so. I have half a century in this interest; from what I hear, fewer than half of the brands in what we call high-end audio have any real interest in music reproduction fidelity. Among those that do, there's a lot of room for debate on approaches."
- This is perfect. My key interest that keeps me in this hobby is curiosity of gear differences. That's also why people buy multiple carts. But 95 percent of what I hear, maybe more, I would not want to own irrespective of price because they have no relation to musical fidelity. Raidho are prime examples. Those that do have relation to musical fidelity, some are fungible... Like nice carts are, and some are not. Finding those is where the fun lies.
- This is perfect. My key interest that keeps me in this hobby is curiosity of gear differences. That's also why people buy multiple carts. But 95 percent of what I hear, maybe more, I would not want to own irrespective of price because they have no relation to musical fidelity. Raidho are prime examples. Those that do have relation to musical fidelity, some are fungible... Like nice carts are, and some are not. Finding those is where the fun lies.
Oh, Keith isn't returning "home" anytime soon Lol. Interesting that YG is his destination. A lot of that is the poor experiences and missed opportunities of alternatives. Maybe the YG chose itself.So basically he is a deserter ,lol
I think phil does quite some effort to get him back in line again
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