Lamm ML3 + LL1, at last!

[Mike Lavigne]

Listening to the XLF's with the ML3 + LL1 supplemented by one Wilson Audio Watchdog subwoofer plus controller driven by the M1.2.

The JL Audio JL113 mk2 pair of woofers seems to go deeper, but the Wilson subs seem to add more air to the soundstage.

Now I want another Wilson Audio Watchdog and controller!

the additional 'air' likely related to less overlap of bass frequencies (less distortion, greater ease). you would assume that the Wilson products approach closer to the ideal than the Fathom's.

first; do no harm.

congrats on your progress with the Lamm 'uber' pairing. i'm happy for you Micro.

 

[LL21]

Micro,

Sounds great...looking forward to how this works out. Regarding air...i also have noted even 1 notch on volume, as miniscule as it seems when the volume control goes from 0 to 99...makes a noticeable difference in air. There is both crossover point, distortion, and no doubt many things...and there is also even that most subtle change of 1 notch on volume. Enjoy and look forward to hearing more about this.

 

[Legolas]

Micro

remember I got rid of my pair of Jl Audio F113's as they just weren't needed in my room'

when I did I used Line 1 OUT of the LL1 for main signal to my ML 3's and Line 2 OUT of the LL1 for the line to my subs. That way I could do an instant A/B test by merely turning off Line 2 out. It just sounded better without the Fathom subs. But as they say YMMV

Steve, did you spend lots of time setting up the subs? It is key yo get the phase right, and volume. i.e. get the volume as low as you can get away with for integration, as opposed to making itself known too much. Then the crossover levels to ensure seamless blending.

Also placement. It you put a sub in the listing chair, and play some bass heavy music, then crawl around the room. When you find the spot where the bass is strongest, put the sub there. Sounds like a crazy idea, but it works.

Last point, the floors and walls in the music room have a big impact on sonics as we go down to 50hz and below. Wooden suspended floors can create problems (boom and peaks).

 

[LL21]

In fairness to Steve:

- his room was designed with a profession acoustician
- his room is a good size but more manageable i suspect than his previous room?
- his room has then been well treated, etc again with professional advice

As a result, it would not surprise me if the bass level/gain levels retained in the bass by the room could well eliminate the need for supplementary bass with a sub.

There are numerous big Wilson owners who swear by their subs. I am one of them...and Steve was one of them for YEARS...the massive 7' Wilson sub 3 generations before the current Wilson WAMM Chronosonic subs, as well as DUAL JL Gotham Subs...and then recently the smaller JL Fathoms. So he is definitely a believer in the Wilson + Sub system. But given the care with which he has always calibrated setup and finetuned every system/change I have read about (incl from third parties)...i can imagine he has dialed it in quite well and could have found a great full-range power without the need for subs. Few of us have truly ground up constructed rooms which were designed with and by acousticians.

 

[microstrip]

Dear Micro,

How far apart your Lamm amps and preamp. Are they pretty quiet without unwanted noises.

Kind regards,
Tang

The Lamm's are among the most silent electronics I have owned, both mechanically and electronically. Sometimes we have problems using electronics designed with 60Hz mains at the european 50Hz , but not with Lamm's. The M1.2 / L2 are also very quiet.

 

[Legolas]

In fairness to Steve:

- his room was designed with a profession acoustician
- his room is a good size but more manageable i suspect than his previous room?
- his room has then been well treated, etc again with professional advice

As a result, it would not surprise me if the bass level/gain levels retained in the bass by the room could well eliminate the need for supplementary bass with a sub.

There are numerous big Wilson owners who swear by their subs. I am one of them...and Steve was one of them for YEARS...the massive 7' Wilson sub 3 generations before the current Wilson WAMM Chronosonic subs, as well as DUAL JL Gotham Subs...and then recently the smaller JL Fathoms. So he is definitely a believer in the Wilson + Sub system. But given the care with which he has always calibrated setup and finetuned every system/change I have read about (incl from third parties)...i can imagine he has dialed it in quite well and could have found a great full-range power without the need for subs. Few of us have truly ground up constructed rooms which were designed with and by acousticians.

Indeed, I was asking the methods and how they did it. My previous house had a wooden raised floor, and the problems with sub bass became too much to control. I find a concrete floor has different characteristics though also can have (different) problems.

 

[Steve Williams]

Steve, did you spend lots of time setting up the subs? It is key yo get the phase right, and volume. i.e. get the volume as low as you can get away with for integration, as opposed to making itself known too much. Then the crossover levels to ensure seamless blending.

Also placement. It you put a sub in the listing chair, and play some bass heavy music, then crawl around the room. When you find the spot where the bass is strongest, put the sub there. Sounds like a crazy idea, but it works.

Last point, the floors and walls in the music room have a big impact on sonics as we go down to 50hz and below. Wooden suspended floors can create problems (boom and peaks).

first let me say that it was far from an easy task to integrate two subs into the room. If you remember from previous photos of my room they sat just behind my big Wilson's and slightly medial to the big Wilson's. Phase is a very difficult thing to get correct and as you stated the master volume on my Fathom 113's was very low. It probably took me 3 months of fiddling and putzing with the controls to get it where it sounded ok but it never sounded right. Too many people who visited me and whose ears I trust told me incessantly the subs weren't necessary. It took me years of stubbornness before I gave in and started to play music with the subs off. Using Line 2 out for my subs I had everything crossed out above 43 Hz so my Wilson's played full range and I used the F113's to boost the bottom octave from 16-43 Hz.

Once I turned off the subs they remained in the room for a month until they were sold. Everyone suggested that just leaving them off but in the room will still affect the music. Once they were finally removed from my room I have never looked back or regretted taking them out of the system.

As Lloyd points out my room was designed from the ground up by an acoustician and I am certainly limited by geography or should I say the lack of it so placing the subs around the room as astrostar suggested was just never considered due to size constraints

As for the Lamm gear being quiet as micro suggested I totally agree. In fact about 4 years ago I started messing with grounding cables in a Star device fashion. What shocked me was that I had no noise in the system to begin with and the additional of grounding cables brought all sorts of extraneous noise into the system. The Lamm gear is built like Sherman tanks. They don't win awards for bling but as I have said before I am an SET lover. Have been all tubes for about 15 years and initially used the large Audio Research 600 Mk lll. These gave off s much heat I had to add a dedicated HVAC just for my sound room . I then switched to the Lamm ML 2.1 at 18 wpm and have never looked back. The Lamm ML3/LL1/LP1 Signature series are lifers in y system. I just won't sell them although I am tempted with the pending release of the ML 3.1

For my ears and my room SET has been the way to go and for my money the Lamm Signature series lit up my ears and continues to do such

 

[Legolas]

Great info there Steve, thanks for that.
Did the tech comment on the delay using the tube power amps? Might sound crazy, but I noticed when I tried to use tube SETs for music watching a film, there was a time delay, a fraction of a second, but it was there. Maybe feeding the class D subs with minimal time delay v the tube amps? I am am totally guessing.

Yes SETs. They do something really magic with music. If using higher powered tubes like the GM70, 813, 211, 845, I think the best sound can be had. I have liked some 2A3 MBs with only 7-8W but that presents extra challenges finding speakers to cope with such low output. It can be done, but I prefer to stay on the big bottle amps.

I don't think I can go back to SS amplifiers. I haven't heard the same timbre and character to music from any SS amplifier yet, though they probably do exist. I was not moved by the CH Precision A1s for example.

 

[Steve Williams]

Might sound crazy, but I noticed when I tried to use tube SETs for music watching a film, there was a time delay, a fraction of a second, but it was there. Maybe feeding the class D subs with minimal time delay v the tube amps? I am am totally guessing.

in my last house my room was larger and was integrated with a home theater. At the time I was using Lamm ML 2.1's for main channels. I was using a Lexicon and my Lamm LL1. I had Vladimir determine from where on the gain control of the LL1 unity gain was achieved. I always had the volume on my LL1 set to where Vlad told me there was unity gain. Then I used the Lexicon to control volume in the entire system

I can't ever recall a time delay

 

[microstrip]

Direct comparisons of subwoofers are extremely difficult to come by. Please continue to tell us your impressions between the Watchdog and the JL113s!

I thought the Watch Controller can control two subwoofers?

Yes, but they will be operated in mono, blending L+R in both subs. If we want to have stereo subs we need two controllers.

 

[microstrip]

Micro

remember I got rid of my pair of Jl Audio F113's as they just weren't needed in my room'

when I did I used Line 1 OUT of the LL1 for main signal to my ML 3's and Line 2 OUT of the LL1 for the line to my subs. That way I could do an instant A/B test by merely turning off Line 2 out. It just sounded better without the Fathom subs. But as they say YMMV

I only managed to integrate the JL 113mk2's using the JLAudio CR1 external crossover. Connecting the LL1 or other preamplfiers directly to the sub was not so successful.

 

[Steve Williams]

And I’ll still bet you that they are ideally not integrated

 

[Ron Resnick]

Yes, but they will be operated in mono, blending L+R in both subs. If we want to have stereo subs we need two controllers.

Ah, interesting. Thank you!

Do you think it’s worth getting an additional Watch Controller to be able to have one subwoofer playing each channel?

Unlike the JL Audio Gotham which has the ARO automatic equalization system built-in, I know the Watch Controller has a variable Q notch and peak/dip filter. Does your room have any peak or dip anomaly which you are using the Watch Controller EQ to correct?

(So great that you had Lamm hybrids just laying around!)

(It’s always fun to think about subwoofers, but if I ever really went in that direction I would want some giant Wilson Audio subwoofers with Watch Controllers. I would have to get those immovable 600 pound subwoofers because otherwise David would pull them out of the system on his own when I went to bathroom.)

 

[ddk]

(It’s always fun to think about subwoofers, but if I ever really went in that direction I would want some giant Wilson Audio subwoofers with Watch Controllers. I would have to get those immovable 600 pound subwoofers because otherwise David would pull them out of the system on his own when I went to bathroom.)

Not the Wilsons but if they're Junk Labs they can weigh 6000 lbs, I'll still pull them out !

david

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Ah, interesting. Thank you!............................

...................(It’s always fun to think about subwoofers, but if I ever really went in that direction I would want some giant Wilson Audio subwoofers with Watch Controllers. I would have to get those immovable 600 pound subwoofers because otherwise David would pull them out of the system on his own when I went to bathroom.)

Not the Wilsons but if they're Junk Labs they can weigh 6000 lbs, I'll still pull them out !

david

+1

the issue is always, always, always integration......not authority or extension. it's child's play to produce the SPL's at particular frequencies. but music, that's a bit harder in the deep bass.

 

[microstrip]

Ah, interesting. Thank you!

Do you think it’s worth getting an additional Watch Controller to be able to have one subwoofer playing each channel?

Surely. But unfortunately it will not be tomorrow.

Unlike the JL Audio Gotham which has the ARO automatic equalization system built-in, I know the Watch Controller has a variable Q notch and peak/dip filter. Does your room have any peak or dip anomaly which you are using the Watch Controller EQ to correct?
(So great that you had Lamm hybrids just laying around!)

Yes, just one peak in the sub bandwidth . Dips in the low bass seldom can be corrected using equalizers.

(It’s always fun to think about subwoofers, but if I ever really went in that direction I would want some giant Wilson Audio subwoofers with Watch Controllers. I would have to get those immovable 600 pound subwoofers because otherwise David would pull them out of the system on his own when I went to bathroom.)

Friday I got some specially selected Mullard CV4003 to try in the VTL7.5 mk3. Time to get back to the VTLs for sometime.

 

[microstrip]

Anyone having experience of Lamm SETs with Nordost Odin cables? Probably I can get a complete loom to try, but it will involve some effort and I would like to have some feedback to know if its worth the effort.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Do we know anyone who currently uses that combination?

 

[ddk]

Anyone having experience of Lamm SETs with Nordost Odin cables? Probably I can get a complete loom to try, but it will involve some effort and I would like to have some feedback to know if its worth the effort.

Your issue is a mismatch between your speakers and the amps no cable's going to fix that! Why don't you spend that money on some vintage horns and find out what the ML3's are really all about instead of wasting it on cables that you don't need?

david

 

[jeff1225]

Your issue is a mismatch between your speakers and the amps no cable's going to fix that! Why don't you spend that money on some vintage horns and find out what the ML3's are really all about instead of wasting it on cables that you don't need?

david

I agree this is a big issue of matches SET amps with speakers with low impedance.

Other than the Bionor which is unobtainium, what are your top five vintage horn speakers David?