Lamm ML3 + LL1, at last!

[Mike Lavigne]

I will not keep both for long - too much expense on audio! One of them must go ...

seems to me i was in that same spot for the similar reasons last spring. a few differences but essentially the same question.

no bad answers.

i highly value that experience going forward experiencing the Lamm ML3 musical viewpoint.....and don't for a minute regret the effort to do so. i felt extremely lucky.

 

[bonzo75]

I have liked Lamm electronics every single time I have heard them. I love the sound of Steve’s top-of-the-line all Lamm system. I believe that you simply cannot go wrong sonically using Lamm electronics in appropriate systems.

On girl-with-guitar and simpler jazz music I preferred the ML3s over VAC 450s and darTZeel 458s in MikeL’s amazing system and room. (Ironically, it was also that experience which caused me to let go of my high-power SET/PSET amplifier quest and come full-circle back to high-power push-pull for a single, do-it-all amplifier solution.). I think at its power rating the ML3 is a standard state-of-the-art recommendation.

Just to make a bit of trouble I will say that I would love to hear a direct A/B/C comparison among ML3, Viva Aurora and Absolare 845 SET!

Both set and PP choices are wrong for you but go down the microstrip route, then sell off the real one or the magical one and think the one you haven't sold off is the best choice. Then stay with it for years till you hear the correct choice.

 

[morricab]

Using recordings of performances I have listened the VTL shows more detail of the performance and the rhythm is more correct - more ambiance, more nuanced voices and instruments. However listening to the Lamm's is more fluid and relaxing, although it clearly hides some detail.

Listening to Jennifer Warmes Famous Blue Raincoat in the two amplifiers was revelatory - in the Lamm is sounds a bit more like old Leonard Cohen recordings, on the VTL it shows more a singer with a microphone in a stage - you feel her moving as she approaches it, the voice has more sibilants.

High frequency distortion can “enhance “ apparent detail by making things like sibilants sharper than it really is. Not saying the Lamm isn’t smoothing things over(not all SETS do BTW.) but perhaps the VTLs exaggerate due to high frequency distortion. Which one carves out a more realistic soundstage and 3D imaging?

I am confused though because your statement that one brings “magic” and the other is “realistic “. To me the one that convinces you the closest feeling live (with appropriate recording) should be the one that is both magical and realistic. Now, a caveat is that if one or the other amp makes a sameness with all recordings, all magic or all ruthlessly “realistic “, then probably there is a flaw there somewhere.

 

[Legolas]

Indeed Morricab. I heard the Kondo OnGaku many years ago at a dealer in Scotland, and it was what I would term 'magic'. Or more accurately warm and cuddly, coloured and smooth. Now if that is accurate to the recordings? Probably not. Was it the best sound I have ever heard, no it wasn't, but it was very 'nice'.

I think we have the wire with gain camp, who bang on about transparency and detail, and the other camp who look for timbre, an organic type of sound. I find a lot of modern audio gear to be in the transparency camp, and looses something that we all need IMO, the emotional connection to the music. I used to own a top Stax 009 and KGSShv Carbon amp combo, and that was the fastest and most detailed sound I have heard to date. Sadly, for me, I had to move on as it didn't sound realistic or give me a connection to the music, rather a 'picking it apart' type of sound, a studio monitor in effect, with micro detail and 'plankton' thrown in with similar prominence as the more 'regular' detail.

So I believe I aim for somewhere in the middle of these two camps, transparency that gives me enough clues to what is going on, but not robbing the music of it's timbre, body and weight, the texture that creates the very illusion we want in our home system. And that illusion is a replication of what we would hear live, or as near as we can get to that. That is what I hear with Aries Cerat components.

 

[morricab]

Indeed Morricab. I heard the Kondo OnGaku many years ago at a dealer in Scotland, and it was what I would term 'magic'. Or more accurately warm and cuddly, coloured and smooth. Now if that is accurate to the recordings? Probably not. Was it the best sound I have ever heard, no it wasn't, but it was very 'nice'.

I think we have the wire with gain camp, who bang on about transparency and detail, and the other camp who look for timbre, an organic type of sound. I find a lot of modern audio gear to be in the transparency camp, and looses something that we all need IMO, the emotional connection to the music. I used to own a top Stax 009 and KGSShv Carbon amp combo, and that was the fastest and most detailed sound I have heard to date. Sadly, for me, I had to move on as it didn't sound realistic or give me a connection to the music, rather a 'picking it apart' type of sound, a studio monitor in effect, with micro detail and 'plankton' thrown in with similar prominence as the more 'regular' detail.

So I believe I aim for somewhere in the middle of these two camps, transparency that gives me enough clues to what is going on, but not robbing the music of it's timbre, body and weight, the texture that creates the very illusion we want in our home system. And that illusion is a replication of what we would hear live, or as near as we can get to that. That is what I hear with Aries Cerat components.

So, the Kondo was “magic” on first listen but later not? Perhaps you were reacting to the natural flow and timbre of instruments that this gear can portray? However, for me magic is the sensation of feeling what you are hear is “real” or “live”. I have heard a Kondo sound this way with Living Voice Vox Olympians, but these are a very easy load and so this will minimize that “warm cuddly “ behavior, which is often coming from output transformer saturation or an inadequate driver or power supply. Not sure what speakers you heard them with.

As to the Lamm amps, you can see from stereophile that there is some saturation in the output transformer because of an increase in THD at bass frequencies, although it is far less severe than many tube amps be they SET or PP. look at the recent review of a Border Patrol amp to see a poor result indicating a way undersized OPT.

Still, given the cost of the Lamm, it is disappointing to see ANY saturation but this will contribute to a warmish overall timbre and some possible “smoothing” of detail.

The VTL is a different story. It has good bass distortion characteristics, indicating and adequate OPT design for low frequency reproduction. It is also why it is not “warm and cuddly”. However, it has a rise in high frequency distortion that might well indicate an exaggeration of transients and highlight “detail” at the expense of s more natural presentation. Again, it is not severe and likely to be better than a number of tube or SS amps that really exaggerate detail.

Both amps are likely very good but each has different tradeoffs that can actually be seen to some extent in detailed measurements. How these sonic traits impact the listener though is still highly subjective.

Finding amps that do what these do well without their idiosyncrasies is not easy without introducing different idiosyncrasies.

There is no such thing as a straight wire with gain sadly.

 

[Legolas]

Yes, I would say the Kondo was warmer and softer than real life. I heard them on the big Zingali Home Monitor 110s which were tube friendly for a big speaker, about 96dB efficient into 6 ohms. But the 110s do like plenty of current. It was in a typical domestic sized room, so realistic sized home setting. BUT at that time my exposure to really high end was more limited. Since then I have moved on, and up, and have more experience of how higher end systems can sound both good and bad. I would say I may feel a bit less impressed now. And the price of those amps....

Yes those Living Voice Olympians at Munich, really great sound. But they used 2 separate amps for each channel, and the bass horns were self amped, so a bit of a cheat maybe? Not all powered by the Kondo's in that case then. Then the battery power supply which was hidden from view but was HUGE. And the careful choice of music. Having said that, you can't take away how good it sounded. Nearly 1M Euros though.

Lamm are interesting amps, I did their website but haven't heard any of their gear yet. Vladimir uses mid range parts but has a skill in getting them to work together. He has a secret way of doing that, but I believe it is really careful matching and system synergy. If a tube is a tad dark, use a brighter cap in the coupling position for example. Obviously much more to amplifier design than this, but you get my drift.

Kondo and Audio Note UK go for insane silver transformers, handmade parts and crazy prices. The idea that a single part, if made with the best components can hugely increase the sound you get from the exact same circuit. Maybe this is true? In Audio Note UK's case, they have milked this strategy to the max. Are their transformers magic, better than anyone else? I would question that. Having owned some of their amps and DACs, I would say not. Bigger can be better even using copper than 'more silver' especially if the OPT are undersized for the application already IMO. Physical constants maybe?

Still, a fascinating subject, I bet the guys who designed the original SET amps for cinema use back in the 30s never imagined nearly 90 years later we would still be extracting the best out of those very designs. I actually like that aspect, like respecting the past, as opposed to a new and throw away latest amp to sling out and start again 5 years later. In fact I am stocking up on tubes right now Ha Ha.

 

[morricab]

Yes, I would say the Kondo was warmer and softer than real life. I heard them on the big Zingali Home Monitor 110s which were tube friendly for a big speaker, about 96dB efficient into 6 ohms. But the 110s do like plenty of current. It was in a typical domestic sized room, so realistic sized home setting. BUT at that time my exposure to really high end was more limited. Since then I have moved on, and up, and have more experience of how higher end systems can sound both good and bad. I would say I may feel a bit less impressed now. And the price of those amps....

Yes those Living Voice Olympians at Munich, really great sound. But they used 2 separate amps for each channel, and the bass horns were self amped, so a bit of a cheat maybe? Not all powered by the Kondo's in that case then. Then the battery power supply which was hidden from view but was HUGE. And the careful choice of music. Having said that, you can't take away how good it sounded. Nearly 1M Euros though.

Lamm are interesting amps, I did their website but haven't heard any of their gear yet. Vladimir uses mid range parts but has a skill in getting them to work together. He has a secret way of doing that, but I believe it is really careful matching and system synergy. If a tube is a tad dark, use a brighter cap in the coupling position for example. Obviously much more to amplifier design than this, but you get my drift.

Kondo and Audio Note UK go for insane silver transformers, handmade parts and crazy prices. The idea that a single part, if made with the best components can hugely increase the sound you get from the exact same circuit. Maybe this is true? In Audio Note UK's case, they have milked this strategy to the max. Are their transformers magic, better than anyone else? I would question that. Having owned some of their amps and DACs, I would say not. Bigger can be better even using copper than 'more silver' especially if the OPT are undersized for the application already IMO. Physical constants maybe?

Still, a fascinating subject, I bet the guys who designed the original SET amps for cinema use back in the 30s never imagined nearly 90 years later we would still be extracting the best out of those very designs. I actually like that aspect, like respecting the past, as opposed to a new and throw away latest amp to sling out and start again 5 years later. In fact I am stocking up on tubes right now Ha Ha.

Putting silver wire on a transformer core that is too small won’t prevent saturation, for example, nor will a special cap save an underdeveloped driver stage. Parts can, IMO , improve a situation but it won’t fix a fundamental flaw in design.

 

[Legolas]

Yes, I think you are correct. So IMO the design and fundamentals need to be right / balanced first. Then incremental improvements could be made with increasing parts quality.

The Audio Note model I found to not work, the basics were not there from the start, i.e. weady transformers resulting in core saturation and loose bass, restricted dynamics. The smoke and mirrors of a 'secret sauce' in AN factory produced transformers and caps, resistors etc. I can definately say the Audio Note copper caps are terrible sonics, as I had the Conquest MBs and the DAC 5 which was throttled with those caps. Duelund copper cast let them breath and at least get some form of details and dynamics back, albeit still restricted.

 

[christoph]

Most

Most intriguing comment...which is real for you and which magic?

Do you really have to ask?

 

[LL21]

I admit I do. Both are supposedly phenomenally good amps. I could imagine the Lamm being magic but perhaps not powerful enough to drive the big XLFs to 'realistic volumes'...on the other hand, i could also imagine it has a purity of tone that perhaps the VTL does not match (which has magic in its all-powerful majesty and scale).

 

[Tango]

One man's color is another man's truth. Let's just agree on that.

Tang

 

[bonzo75]

"What, can the devil speak true?" - William Shakespeare

 

[LL21]

One man's color is another man's truth. Let's just agree on that.

Tang

Agree.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Most

Most intriguing comment...which is real for you and which magic?

Do you really have to ask?

i think expectations and musical choices matter in identifying where we find the magic. for me, the warp 9 big music of various types has a magic unmatched by any other. carry you away kinda magic in the ability to deliver the thrills. so that was my 'non-negotiable'. my whole system building was set up to get that unrestricted.

for me i also had the solid state alternative to big tube push pulls as the third choice.

OTOH there is magic in other viewpoints of the music too.....which the SET ML3's certainly have in the highest form i have experienced.

 

[LL21]

Agree! I am highly confident i do NOT have anywhere near the unrestricted dynamics of Mike L's system...but i CAN say that driving the Wilsons with the Gryphon (vs 50-60 watt/channel tubed amp...no, not SOTA amp) has delivered a dynamic scale/effortlessness/wallop that I would never walk away from...and coupled with the big Velodyne DD18+, even more so.

That is indeed a magic of its own.

And at the same time, there is a magic to the quiet nuances of solo instruments which can transport you.

 

[morricab]

One man's color is another man's truth. Let's just agree on that.

Tang

Real live acoustic instruments are the “absolute sound”

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Real live acoustic instruments are the “absolute sound”

one? two? four?

75?

150?

and how big is the space?

is there an organ involved?

what it takes to handle all of these variations with authority is not the same as what it takes to handle the smaller versions. yet they are all the 'absolute sound'.

 

[morricab]

i think expectations and musical choices matter in identifying where we find the magic. for me, the warp 9 big music of various types has a magic unmatched by any other. carry you away kinda magic in the ability to deliver the thrills. so that was my 'non-negotiable'. my whole system building was set up to get that unrestricted.

for me i also had the solid state alternative to big tube push pulls as the third choice.

OTOH there is magic in other viewpoints of the music too.....which the SET ML3's certainly have in the highest form i have experienced.

You are conflating music choice in the discussion here Mike.

We are still talking about quality of REPRODUCTION, not the feeling certain music gives to you.

You might get big sound from your big, powerful system but I would wager that it doesn’t sound real compared to a big live orchestral concert...I haven’t heard a system yet that can do this illusion right.

Getting some smaller to sound pretty damn close to real is possible but still very hard for most gear. I find the artifacts from sources and electronics to be the biggest destroyers of this feeling of real.

Also, It is not at all clear what you mean when you talk about ML3 “magic”. Does this mean they sounded more real on smaller music than your other amps only to lose it on “big” music? See, here you are back to talking about gear and magic where above it was music and magic... confusing.

 

[morricab]

one? two? four?

75?

150?

and how big is the space?

is there an organ involved?

what it takes to handle all of these variations with authority is not the same as what it takes to handle the smaller versions. yet they are all the 'absolute sound'.

Doesn’t matter. Live is live. However, what a system can do to approach live does have to do with numbers of musicians, type of music and venue. The Best I have heard can make a valid effort at small to medium sized ensembles (maybe 10-15 instruments) but NONE get big orchestra really believable. Now this might simply be a recording technology limit but even the best classical recordings on the best systems fall well short of believability. I am sure even yours.

Now, I am not saying big music can’t be enjoyable or transport you emotionally at home...only it won’t fool you even for a minute. I have heard systems do quartet or quintet (classical or Jazz) with stunning realism, so I know what is possible up to that size...beyond...tough jon indeed and again likely running into the recording limits...perhaps the best can but are handicapped by the material?

 

[bonzo75]

Why don't you visit Mike once?