Lamm ML3 + LL1, at last!

[microstrip]

High frequency distortion can “enhance “ apparent detail by making things like sibilants sharper than it really is. Not saying the Lamm isn’t smoothing things over(not all SETS do BTW.) but perhaps the VTLs exaggerate due to high frequency distortion. Which one carves out a more realistic soundstage and 3D imaging?

I am confused though because your statement that one brings “magic” and the other is “realistic “. To me the one that convinces you the closest feeling live (with appropriate recording) should be the one that is both magical and realistic. Now, a caveat is that if one or the other amp makes a sameness with all recordings, all magic or all ruthlessly “realistic “, then probably there is a flaw there somewhere.

You say part of the answer when you refer to "appropriate recordings". My appropriate recordings are those which have music I appreciate and good recording quality - not the champions of LP lists of known reviewers. And I consider that some of these modern recordings more challenging and more real than the old classics.

I will not be able to explain what we usually mean by magic and real in audiophile posts in a short sentence again - we posted on it several times, M- Fremer discusses it very interestingly in his freely available online Lamm ML3 review in Stereophile. I do not pretend to debate audio vocabulary, just to share what I listen, I will the words in a common way. I know about our divergence on the use of live to establish an absolute reference, no need to go on solo violin again. My only interest for now is sharing with others my experiences, nothing else.

And no, none of these amplifiers distorts high frequency or makes a sameness with all recordings. They just present the recording in different ways. Also I do not pretend to have an wire with gain - at the prices we are paying we expect more.

 

[microstrip]

Real live acoustic instruments are the “absolute sound”

We are just addressing semantics - the "absolute sound" does not exist. Harry Pearson wrote full articles describing what I consider his (and surely many others) preferences - that he nicked of The Absolute Sound. Considering his deep audio knowledge, his writing abilities and the impact of his magazine, the expression partially leaked in our vocabulary, but most of the time with a different meaning.

 

[microstrip]

seems to me i was in that same spot for the similar reasons last spring. a few differences but essentially the same question.

no bad answers.

i highly value that experience going forward experiencing the Lamm ML3 musical viewpoint.....and don't for a minute regret the effort to do so. i felt extremely lucky.

Yes, Mike, it is why we love this hobby!

 

[LL21]

You are conflating music choice in the discussion here Mike.

We are still talking about quality of REPRODUCTION, not the feeling certain music gives to you.

You might get big sound from your big, powerful system but I would wager that it doesn’t sound real compared to a big live orchestral concert...I haven’t heard a system yet that can do this illusion right.

Getting some smaller to sound pretty damn close to real is possible but still very hard for most gear. I find the artifacts from sources and electronics to be the biggest destroyers of this feeling of real.

Also, It is not at all clear what you mean when you talk about ML3 “magic”. Does this mean they sounded more real on smaller music than your other amps only to lose it on “big” music? See, here you are back to talking about gear and magic where above it was music and magic... confusing.

For me, the point is that NONE of the elements of reproduction 100.00000% exact to reality. Therefore, it still comes down to a preference, a ranking of what in the overall reproduction matters most. eg

Some would prefer a 70% life-like violin with 20% life-like scale of orchestra vs 95% life-like violin and 5% life-like orchestral scale. Thus, I still find Mike L's comments worthwhile...because for him (i suspect) and for me (for sure), thrilling scale is a no-going-back feature i cannot find in mini-monitors (which i love and owned from 1993-2008 consecutively culminating in the Guarneri Homages).

As to live instruments being the real thing...i would also say that big Kodo drums are included in that...and for some people once again, it might be that for them realism is less about reproducing a violin perfectly, as it is being able to slam your chest when the kodo drums play. or when motorcycles rumble in movies. Try the first Expendables movie for that when Stallone arrives in Mickey Rourke's garage...that actually does feel like a motorcycle has entered your living room when done right.

 

[microstrip]

(...) Thus, I still find Mike L's comments worthwhile...because for him (i suspect) and for me (for sure), thrilling scale is a no-going-back feature i cannot find in mini-monitors (which i love and owned from 1993-2008 consecutively culminating in the Guarneri Homages). (...)

Yes, IMHO scale is much more than a positional/soundstage effect. At similar sound levels the scale of the SoundLab's is very different from the scale of the XLF's.

Never managed to read a good technical debate (for me this means correlating objective meaningful data with sound quality) on what creates scale in a system.

 

[microstrip]

I will give you an example. Listen to tracks 12 and 13 of the exceptional recording of Luigi Boccherini with Patrick Cohen and Quatuor Mosaïques - Trois Quintetti (Dédiés À La Nation Française Opus 57. Wonderful music, IMHO this recording was made to sell Lamm's ... They will show more of the successive variations of the marche and more joy in the ending polonaise, although less of the way the instruments are being played than the VTL's.

BTW, I have found that the ML3 is extraordinary susceptible to speaker cable tonality - going from Crystal cable to Stealth creates a different amplifier.

 

[LL21]

Yes, IMHO scale is much more than a positional/soundstage effect. At similar sound levels the scale of the SoundLab's is very different from the scale of the XLF's.

Never managed to read a good technical debate (for me this means correlating objective meaningful data with sound quality) on what creates scale in a system.

Not being a techie, [if] we could look at soundwaves like some kind of particle formation, i would have imagined that a powerful blast of smaller, more concentrated particles (cones?) gives a very different sense of scale, than a less powerful blast of a bigger overall wave of particles (panels?). And then of course, within cones, there is the cone surface area combined with its ability to move air (excursion). And then within panels, there is the excursion (ie, 'force capability') of the panels to drive/blast air.

 

[microstrip]

(...) Just to make a bit of trouble I will say that I would love to hear a direct A/B/C comparison among ML3, Viva Aurora and Absolare 845 SET!

Again, things are not so easy. Most of what we ear is due to preamplifier / amplifier sonic matching. Today I replaced the VTL 7.5 mk3 with the ARC REF 40 (anniversary preamplfier) . Some characteristics I was attributing to the Siegfried II seem to be attributed to the 7.5 preamplifier. Privately I was told that the 7.5 sonics change a lot with the 12AU7 tube brand - this only makes characterization more difficult and a longer lasting process.

 

[ddk]

Never managed to read a good technical debate (for me this means correlating objective meaningful data with sound quality) on what creates scale in a system.

Bass quality!
david

 

[morricab]

Again, things are not so easy. Most of what we ear is due to preamplifier / amplifier sonic matching. Today I replaced the VTL 7.5 mk3 with the ARC REF 40 (anniversary preamplfier) . Some characteristics I was attributing to the Siegfried II seem to be attributed to the 7.5 preamplifier. Privately I was told that the 7.5 sonics change a lot with the 12AU7 tube brand - this only makes characterization more difficult and a longer lasting process.

Tube rolling can make a huge difference in most tube gear. Does the Ref 40 use 6N30pi tubes? New versions of this tube generally suck. If you haven’t then roll either NOS (if you can find them) or try 6N6p instead, which I sonically preferred in my Ayon amp.

 

[microstrip]

Tube rolling can make a huge difference in most tube gear. Does the Ref 40 use 6N30pi tubes? New versions of this tube generally suck. If you haven’t then roll either NOS (if you can find them) or try 6N6p instead, which I sonically preferred in my Ayon amp.

Thanks. Both the Lamm LL1 and ML3 use standard Sovteks and I can assure you they play great.

I have tried the 6N30pi in the past and found that they just sounded different - I could get more significant differences just swapping the power cables or moving the REF5 (my preamplfier at that time) to another rack or platform.

BTW, people should know that using the 6N6p in a 6h30/6n30 position can be a risky deal according to BAT Victor Kromenko - see https://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/t.mpl?f=tubes&m=212113 and many others. I will not risk any of my equipment with such replacement unless the designer approves it, YMMV. IMHO it depends a lot on circuits and it is a matter for knowledgeable DIY people.

 

[morricab]

Thanks. Both the Lamm LL1 and ML3 use standard Sovteks and I can assure you they play great.

I have tried the 6N30pi in the past and found that they just sounded different - I could get more significant differences just swapping the power cables or moving the REF5 (my preamplfier at that time) to another rack or platform.

BTW, people should know that using the 6N6p in a 6h30/6n30 position can be a risky deal according to BAT Victor Kromenko - see https://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/t.mpl?f=tubes&m=212113 and many others. I will not risk any of my equipment with such replacement unless the designer approves it, YMMV. IMHO it depends a lot on circuits and it is a matter for knowledgeable DIY people.

To each his own. I have done the swap with no undue issues and the 6N6 had significantly better tone...less harshness. The fact is that it works fine one way but not the other. If you have an amp or preamp designed for the 6n6 you cannot use a 6n30 because the 6n30 draws more filament current and could damage the power supply by overstressing the demand. The other way around is generally no problem as the 6N6 draws less not more current. The bigger question will be whether the bias setting is suitable for the 6N6 once swapped. It might not be optimal. But it doesn't hurt to try and the tubes are very cheap...and true NOS.

Lukasz from Lampizator showed that swapping them in a BAT cd player was also no problem at all and that it was generally ok to do so.

I found the new production 6n30s to sound not very good in my Ayon (my amp used 6N30s in the driver section), I tried plain Sovteks and gold pin version, both were harsh and made the amp sound quite analytical. Swapping to 6N6 made it sound much more relaxed with better flow and all harshness gone. It was a bit softer sound overall and perhaps slightly warmer but still resolute. Swapping out the Russian 6SJ7s for NOS RCAs improved things even more.

 

[microstrip]

(...) Lukasz from Lampizator showed that swapping them in a BAT cd player was also no problem at all and that it was generally ok to do so.
(...)

Generally says it all. But IMHO people should know what they are risking. A few single cases are not enough to establish rules and people explained in technical terms what are the problems in some cases - for example the increase in current can heat cathode or anode resistors, that can become definitively noisier or change their value - a common fault in tube circuits that sometimes in not easy to trace. People just say that the device used to sound better in the past ...

BTW Lampizator uses resistors of substantially overrated power in their circuits, as they are prepared for tube swaps, even with very different parameters. It is not a common rule in many other brands. Each case is a different case.

 

[morricab]

Generally says it all. But IMHO people should know what they are risking. A few single cases are not enough to establish rules and people explained in technical terms what are the problems in some cases - for example the increase in current can heat cathode or anode resistors, that can become definitively noisier or change their value - a common fault in tube circuits that sometimes in not easy to trace. People just say that the device used to sound better in the past ...

BTW Lampizator uses resistors of substantially overrated power in their circuits, as they are prepared for tube swaps, even with very different parameters. It is not a common rule in many other brands. Each case is a different case.

Did you miss where I stated the 6n6 draws less not more current?? This means you won’t damage a 6n30 circuit by using one...same cannot be said the other way around.

 

[microstrip]

Did you miss where I stated the 6n6 draws less not more current?? This means you won’t damage a 6n30 circuit by using one...same cannot be said the other way around.

Unfortunately you did not read either the link or my post - what is being addressed is cathode and/or anode tube current, not filament ... Cathode and anode resistors are traversed by tube cathodic current, not filament current.

 

[morricab]

Unfortunately you did not read either the link or my post - what is being addressed is cathode and/or anode tube current, not filament ... Cathode and anode resistors are traversed by tube cathodic current, not filament current.

Victor himself says no damage to his products comes from a swap...merely a risk of poor sound. Therefore, essentially no risk as you should be able to tell if the swap was good or bad, no? Also, he mentions potentially short life...not an issue when they cost $10 each...stock up!

My point was and is the confitions for the 6n6 are always lower than for 6n30 so you can drop them in without fear of damaging circuitry and in many cases they sound better. You cannot put a 6n30 in a 6n6 circuit because it has higher filament demands and possibly bias so it could fry some marginal circuits.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Using recordings of performances I have listened the VTL shows more detail of the performance and the rhythm is more correct - more ambiance, more nuanced voices and instruments. However listening to the Lamm's is more fluid and relaxing, although it clearly hides some detail.

Listening to Jennifer Warmes Famous Blue Raincoat in the two amplifiers was revelatory - in the Lamm is sounds a bit more like old Leonard Cohen recordings, on the VTL it shows more a singer with a microphone in a stage - you feel her moving as she approaches it, the voice has more sibilants.

This is very, very interesting, Francisco!!! I really want to understand what you are reporting. Unfortunately it’s just not coming through to me.

As you know I own the Siegfried II, and I love the ML3. I would think the ML3 would create more ambiance and nuance, not less.

Is there anyway you can elaborate, somehow? I am just not understanding.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Again, things are not so easy. Most of what we ear is due to preamplifier / amplifier sonic matching. Today I replaced the VTL 7.5 mk3 with the ARC REF 40 (anniversary preamplfier) . Some characteristics I was attributing to the Siegfried II seem to be attributed to the 7.5 preamplifier. Privately I was told that the 7.5 sonics change a lot with the 12AU7 tube brand - this only makes characterization more difficult and a longer lasting process.

Please describe for us in detail the differences you hear between the VTL TL-7.5 Series III and the REF 40 on the Siegfried II.

 

[microstrip]

Lately I have been reading about one very interesting, although extremely expensive speaker - the Living Voice Olympian / Elysian.

I find them used mostly with Kondo, but does any one know about anyone using them with Lamm ?

BTW, the Living Voice world is filled with surprises ...

 

[bonzo75]

Lately I have been reading about one very interesting, although extremely expensive speaker - the Living Voice Olympian / Elysian.

I find them used mostly with Kondo, but does any one know about anyone using them with Lamm ?

BTW, the Living Voice world is filled with surprises ...

That is because Kevin is also the importer for Kondo Japan and voices them on it.

Please don't go horns. Bill started that way last year. Christian and Audioquattr now. If you do it, and then Rudolf, whom will I debate with? Just Boston? And Davey will be almost alone