12au7 is ECC82, I wonder how the more celebrated European versions would sound, ie Pope Holland, Amperex, Valvo, Tungsram, Philips Delta code, Mullard, Lorenz, Brimar, Telefunken, Seimens, and the Japanese vintage ones too,(Hitachi/Mazda. etc)...The following is an unfiltered, unbiased impression of my listening session on Saturday. I will also provide some answers to questions I raised with Lukasz. I had two goals coming to this event. First to find out if the Horizon is $25k better than the Pacific; and two, how did the Horizon sound without a Pre-amp? The tube rolling was an added bonus even though I am not traditionally a tube roller.
Some of the questions I asked Lukasz:
Where are you in your current production plan and do you think you are going to make any changes in the next 6 months. This was important to me because living in Arizona, I did not want to have to ship it back to Poland for updates. Also, I worked in the automotive business and you really do not want early models for a new vehicle until they get the bugs worked out. Lukasz basically said he has been ready with this product for over a year and would have launched sooner if not for Covid. He also stated he has pulled his team off of the Horizon project to work on other projects. The bottom line is that I felt confident that I can purchase one right now.
I asked him given his new tube configuration, which tubes would create the most sonic difference in sound. I am not a tube roller and given there are 3 different tube systems, I just did not know. His response was the two input tubes. So from my perspective and from what I heard I understood his answer. BTW, I am not an audio tech geek so much of this was a learning session for me.
I asked him about what tubes I would be getting with the Horizon. For $50K, I would have thought whatever you wanted. Lukasz explained that he just can't buy 50 sets of every tube that we would want. He promised that the tubes he would include for your purchase would be of high quality and personally approved by him. In essence, he buys lots of 10, and when they run out either he gets more or uses another tube. As an example, the 6900 tubes which everyone seemed to like will not be a possibility because he just can't get them and they are running $1500 a pair. I am confident whatever he chooses will work great.
I asked him if there is any difference between SPDIF and USB and he stated basically no but most will use USB. I have found SPDIF to be better in my Pacific from the LDMS.
How does the Pacific compare to the Horizon? As I stated above the difference in cost is not chump change. So in my mind, I wanted to hear a major improvement in sound quality to justify the added cost. I also did not want to let the pre horizon hype get in MY way of making a judgment for me. I am super happy with the Pacific and there are many other things I could spend the money on. If you have a system like Steve which I am guessing is well over $700K (just guessing), the Horizon would be his crown jewel and last DAC for his lifetime. For someone who has a midrange system, I think you could be happy with the Pacific for the rest of your life. I usually can tell if I hear something in the first 30 seconds, but in this case, it took longer. The biggest difference for me was the detail and smoothness of the music. I heard more detail of the music, even the faintest of background instruments than I have ever heard. For me, it is always about the guitar riffs, the cymbals, the horn etc. I am listening to the instruments and the detail that the Horizon put out was pretty incredible. It was as if every last ounce of musicality was found in the music and transferred to your amps. The question is, is that worth another $25k? In my case, yes. But God Dammit this better be the last DAC....lol.
After owning the Pacific for a year, Rob and Fred, and for that matter, Chrstoph had suggested I try it without a PRE which I did. As a result, I sold my Preamp last week based on what I heard on this thread. In the meantime, I was also looking for a different Pre-amp just in case. I was hoping to avoid that because it would have been hard to explain to my wife I need $25k for the Horizon and $25k for another Pre. I was able to tell her that I am using some of the money from my sold Pre-amp to go towards the Horizon to soften the blow. After talking to Lukasz, he assured me that I did not need a Preamp. At the end of the session, we took the Pre out. My opinion is that it was very very close. I would say that without a Pre-amp I was hearing 96% of the same music quality compared to having a Pre. So, in my case, I am not going to buy a new Preamp. It was just that close in my mind and ears.
For the tube rolling, Steve started with Lukasz favorite tubes which included the KT88 and 6900. IMO, you really can be happy right there and never have to change another tube. Unfortunately, the 6900 is not readily available. I would agree also that the KT170 power tubes were dull. I happened to bring 10 sets of vintage tubes from the '50s that I wanted Lukasz to tell me whether they would work. He checked them all out and we ended up playing two of them. One was the Brimar Yellow T which was discussed earlier. This tube was tested right after the 6900. It should be noted it has not ever been played before. That tube basically put steroids on the 6900. Everything was amplified. I liked it because I like to hear the detail at lower sound levels. However, it was mentioned that one could get fatigued after listening to it for say 5-6 hours straight. I get it. The second tube that Lukasz picked out was a Sylvania 12AU7 shiny black plate. This produced an increase in the bass with crystal clear highs and midrange. Lukasz said to me that was the best of all the tubes he heard that day. The Bass was deep. People already responded to the Melz tube so I thought it was very nice and I could see it being part of the tube complement you get with the Horizon.
Unfortunately, we ran out of time so I did not get to hear any other tubes which were a little disappointing. Given that I have 10 pairs of tubes I can try, I am not worried about it. BTW the song we used to compare the various tubes was Anette Askvik - Liberty. I am also going to buy a quad set of the 1950s 6550's to try as Power tubes. I will let you know what they are after my supplier tells me.
I think I captured everything I can remember. I don't know all of the audio terms, I just let my ears tell me what I like and don't like. The bottom line is that I am going ahead with my purchase and Lampi NA already has my deposit. I will be going with the Duracell edition. One final point that Lukasz talked about is if you just use the SE portion of the DAC you really only need the two left Power tubes.
Many thanks to Steve for sharing his house. I don't even want to turn my system on now. Good luck to the Lampi NA team and Lukasz as they head to Tampa.
The is blind will aka Willgolf
Also, whe you say you only need the left tubes for SE, so you mean the left when facing the Dac or left when looking from behind the Dac (the true left positional of the Dac)?
