Lampizator announcement: launch of our all new TOTL HORIZON DAC
- Thread starter Lukasz "Lampizator" Fikus
- Start date
steve williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
Lukasz
Here is a direct quote from the Horizon manual.....I have always had mine at 63 and use my preamp to control volume. To me I would rather have the best signal going to my preamp....isn't that 63?
COOPERATION WITH THE PREAMP
The DAC with volume control should sound audibly cleaner and more direct without any preamp between the DAC and the amp. The preamp, however good, will veil a lot of the DAC’s natural clarity, speed and directness. If you feel you need the preamp nevertheless, use DAC at the full volume with bypass (63 on the display).
The load presented by the preamp or amp or simply the next analog component that the DAC sees, should be as high as possible. It is measured in kilo-Ohms and 100Kilo Ohms is a perfect ballpark value. More is VERY rarely seen. 47 K is next common value, and it is great too. 20 K is kind of on a low side, but we can handle that. Lower than 10k is bad news. The bass extension may suffer a few hertz of the lowest octave
The DAC will not be damaged in any way, but at around 6K of load the dynamics of the dac will start to fade away.
Having said that - every properly designed amp or preamp keeps the load value above 40k. And if it doesn’t - we simply don’t choose such amp because it was not designed with audiophiles in mind.
"Audio volume defines the intensity of soundwaves, or how loud a sound is ...[[text omitted)"
"Line level is the specified strength of an audio signal used to transmit analog sound between audio components such as CD and DVD players, television sets, audio amplifiers, and mixing consoles. Line level sits between other levels of audio signals.;"
There is an optimum line level. Varying it can effect volume. Ideally you want to find the optimum line level. Then you vary loudness with the volume control. Imo that yields the best results.
If you want to go without a preamp,the line level can double as a volume control. I am not addressing the Horizon specifically.
"Line level is the specified strength of an audio signal used to transmit analog sound between audio components such as CD and DVD players, television sets, audio amplifiers, and mixing consoles. Line level sits between other levels of audio signals.;"
There is an optimum line level. Varying it can effect volume. Ideally you want to find the optimum line level. Then you vary loudness with the volume control. Imo that yields the best results.
If you want to go without a preamp,the line level can double as a volume control. I am not addressing the Horizon specifically.
In chosing to move forward with the Horizon I have also sold off my preamp, and well, most all of my system. Just keeping my speakers and select cables. I also kept a couple SS amps which play by the rules of high input impedance and highish overall gain. So when the Horizon finally arrives (still have no clue when) the system will function.
Final amp selection will come last, once I know what the new pieces sound like. But input impedance and gain will be criteria, followed by audition. Frankly, reading here about the Horizon‘s output has not given a better understand the situation.
Food for thought. I just sold my Thomas Mayer amp which has a stated input impedance of 600 ohms. It was driven by my tube preamp with a output impedance of 180 ohms. Not exactly the desired 10:1 rule of thumb ratio. It sounded great. Why? Apparently the output stage of the preamp could dump enough current into the amp’s input stage to make it work (maintain linear response). Line level outputs aren’t designed to do this. But the descriptors of line level output and preamp output in this context of the Horizon don’t mean much, it’s trying to be both. By description, it is a preamp output, but with apparently modest current output.
The Horizon’s volume control is described as a constant impedance type. I don’t believe the Pacific’s is. This should make the Horizon a much more linear preamp. Running the Horizon at 63 on the output removes a couple resistors from circuit. This should have a fairly subtle effect on SQ vs say running at 62. If the downstream preamp likes being driven at 43 instead of 63, run it at 43. A happy preamp is more important than a couple resistors in circuit.
Anyone. Feel free to correct or enhance the technical issues here. Hopefully it will further clarify understanding.
So far there are very few data points for the Horizon driving amps directly.
Lamm ML3 - medium input impedance, medium gain - pretty good but not as good as with a top pre
VAC Statement- high input impedance, high gain - pretty good
Constellation - low input impedance - not nearly as good as a top pre
For the lucky ones who have taken delivery, please add to the list.
Final amp selection will come last, once I know what the new pieces sound like. But input impedance and gain will be criteria, followed by audition. Frankly, reading here about the Horizon‘s output has not given a better understand the situation.
Food for thought. I just sold my Thomas Mayer amp which has a stated input impedance of 600 ohms. It was driven by my tube preamp with a output impedance of 180 ohms. Not exactly the desired 10:1 rule of thumb ratio. It sounded great. Why? Apparently the output stage of the preamp could dump enough current into the amp’s input stage to make it work (maintain linear response). Line level outputs aren’t designed to do this. But the descriptors of line level output and preamp output in this context of the Horizon don’t mean much, it’s trying to be both. By description, it is a preamp output, but with apparently modest current output.
The Horizon’s volume control is described as a constant impedance type. I don’t believe the Pacific’s is. This should make the Horizon a much more linear preamp. Running the Horizon at 63 on the output removes a couple resistors from circuit. This should have a fairly subtle effect on SQ vs say running at 62. If the downstream preamp likes being driven at 43 instead of 63, run it at 43. A happy preamp is more important than a couple resistors in circuit.
Anyone. Feel free to correct or enhance the technical issues here. Hopefully it will further clarify understanding.
So far there are very few data points for the Horizon driving amps directly.
Lamm ML3 - medium input impedance, medium gain - pretty good but not as good as with a top pre
VAC Statement- high input impedance, high gain - pretty good
Constellation - low input impedance - not nearly as good as a top pre
For the lucky ones who have taken delivery, please add to the list.
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I'm pretty sure if using a passive preamp 63 would be a good thing . My pre is active and I have horizon at 55
These just arrived from Jakarta. They appear to be an identical build, but one doesn't have the Thompson insignia.
And I also ordered, from Francois, "the most rare sealed lot of 3 tubes: 5687 Rayteon + two 5687CSF HF (for High Frequency) used for French army or transmission."
I must stop buying tubes...
And I also ordered, from Francois, "the most rare sealed lot of 3 tubes: 5687 Rayteon + two 5687CSF HF (for High Frequency) used for French army or transmission."
I must stop buying tubes...
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I'm using the DartZeel Pre -- 30K ohm input.
Planning to experiment with adding some Horizon volume to the DZ.
steve williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
steve williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
I am so glad I sold my Preamp. I don't have to worry about any of this. Keep it simple stupid is a good philosophy for me and the Pacific without a Pre sounds wonderful.
I found the opposite when my I was Preamp less. Is there an ideal volume setting on the Pacific if using a preamp?
Howie you need to play with it but what I read the range usually goes from -15/16db to -6/7dB on the Pac...and accordingly you increase the vol on your pre
The Pacific manual stated the same but still some prefer to match the output volume to their preamps for their optimal sound
steve williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
So here is what I found today as TBH I have always used my preamp with the Horizon short of when, on demo weekend, we went direct DAC to amp. At no time did we ever have the Horizon preamp gain anywhere but 63 when my preamp was used. Frankly that's what the user manual said and I saw no reason to think otherwise.
Yes I did use volume control on my Pacific typically at -12 to -16 db
however a bypass mode to me is different . It is "unity gain" and that's how I want to use my preamp. In fact there is even a unity gain on my Lamm preamp as I had Vladimir test where that was as I was integrating that preamp at the time into my home theater but I was using a Luxman to control overall theater gain
So on demo weekend , the test of keeping the Horizon in bypass mode versus using the Horizon preamp to tune your preamp was never done and it is now interesting to me so I did this experiment today. It was very quick to do and could be done on the fly with the Horizon remote.
I can tell you that if the only difference between 62 and 63 is the absence of 2 little resistors, then my answer is " I want them gone". Frankly in my system the difference between even 62 to 63 was huge. At 63 , my sound stage is full with detail and I have a much more articulate and tighter bass than at 62. The holographic image had totally collapsed at 62. Bass was very good until you hear it at 63 when the change is immediately heard. For my ears using my preamp with the Horizon in bypass mode is pure magic so I can understand how a difference in preamp specs can determine if one should or should not use the Horizon preamp to tune your sound. I would recommend everyone do it quite frankly as it is quick to do
Yes I did use volume control on my Pacific typically at -12 to -16 db
however a bypass mode to me is different . It is "unity gain" and that's how I want to use my preamp. In fact there is even a unity gain on my Lamm preamp as I had Vladimir test where that was as I was integrating that preamp at the time into my home theater but I was using a Luxman to control overall theater gain
So on demo weekend , the test of keeping the Horizon in bypass mode versus using the Horizon preamp to tune your preamp was never done and it is now interesting to me so I did this experiment today. It was very quick to do and could be done on the fly with the Horizon remote.
I can tell you that if the only difference between 62 and 63 is the absence of 2 little resistors, then my answer is " I want them gone". Frankly in my system the difference between even 62 to 63 was huge. At 63 , my sound stage is full with detail and I have a much more articulate and tighter bass than at 62. The holographic image had totally collapsed at 62. Bass was very good until you hear it at 63 when the change is immediately heard. For my ears using my preamp with the Horizon in bypass mode is pure magic so I can understand how a difference in preamp specs can determine if one should or should not use the Horizon preamp to tune your sound. I would recommend everyone do it quite frankly as it is quick to do
steve williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
Yes I can adjust the gain on my LAMM preamp. I have it in the sweet spot for where I listen.
Steve,
As far as I remember , we can't change the gain of the LL1 - we can just switch a -12dB input attenuator, sometimes needed as it is an high gain single stage preamplifier. (17.3 dB)
steve williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
There is a big round gain control on each channel of the LL1. IIRC each detente position is 0.3 db gain
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