Lampizator announcement: launch of our all new TOTL HORIZON DAC

[Mike Lavigne]

so mike let me ask you this. Since your an msb guy and all. how many times has msb made new usb input boards on there dacs ? How many on yours from the sel 1 to your 2 revision ? i recall Vince and others continued improvement of the usb input was based on fixing the many issues of data streaming audio period. writing new software for various formats. All of this makes the dac less dependent on a given level of server.
I’m not saying a better dac does not require a better server but I am saying it’s far less needed as before. in your world the dac is second to the sever seems odd to me. regarding synergy again less important. so let’s take a taiko does it have a sound to add ? Does it gel best with all ?
or a linux based server does it have a sound ?
better dacs need good sources in music more then the server steaming it.

personally i never heard an MSB Select dac, only the Select II.....it was a brief model, quickly supplanted by the next model II.

in the 4+ years i've owned my Select II, there have been a couple (maybe 3?) of software updates, to do with dsd optimization and redbook optimization mostly. the ethernet performance was enhanced with a module called the Renderer v2, which boosted ethernet ahead of usb, and the USB optimization was improved with the Pro USB module, which boosted usb ahead of ethernet.

at one point i had coaching from Emile with Taiko on my network configuration and those changes whether using the Ethernet or Pro USB were audible. everything seemed to matter.

i had the SGM 2015 server initially with the MSB Select II, then the Extreme later, which was always optimized for USB compared to ethernet. then we had the TAS software uptick in processing performance, and then the Taiko USB card too.

at each change with either the server or dac, or LAN improvement, the whole chain of bit handling up to the dac effected the performance and revealed the benefit. the dac was a seeming transparent conduit for incremental change. and that is the idea. if you are all in on performance, you want to be able to hear the musical payoff for the technical efforts put forth.

the dac is not 'second' to the server, but a server is a limiting factor to hearing everything the dac can deliver. the server is like the cartridge and the phono stage is like the dac. got to have both. but the biggest difference between vinyl and digital is the variance of the media. everyone can own any digital file, that is easy. whereas the best vinyl pressings are the stumbling block of vinyl. with digital the dac does the heaviest lifting, with vinyl a decent turntable and phono stage well set up, will surpass the best one's with the best pressing compared to an ordinary pressing on the best vinyl hardware. media is king. it's just different.

 

[howiebrou]

Here’s a build of one in silver

View attachment 85579

Kind of reminds me of....

 

[K3RMIT]

personally i never heard an MSB Select dac, only the Select II.....it was a brief model, quickly supplanted by the next model II.

in the 4+ years i've owned my Select II, there have been a couple (maybe 3?) of software updates, to do with dsd optimization and redbook optimization mostly. the ethernet performance was enhanced with a module called the Renderer v2, which boosted ethernet ahead of usb, and the USB optimization was improved with the Pro USB module, which boosted usb ahead of ethernet.

at one point i had coaching from Emile with Taiko on my network configuration and those changes whether using the Ethernet or Pro USB were audible. everything seemed to matter.

i had the SGM 2015 server initially with the MSB Select II, then the Extreme later, which was always optimized for USB compared to ethernet. then we had the TAS software uptick in processing performance, and then the Taiko USB card too.

at each change with either the server or dac, or LAN improvement, the whole chain of bit handling up to the dac effected the performance and revealed the benefit. the dac was a seeming transparent conduit for incremental change. and that is the idea. if you are all in on performance, you want to be able to hear the musical payoff for the technical efforts put forth.

the dac is not 'second' to the server, but a server is a limiting factor to hearing everything the dac can deliver. the server is like the cartridge and the phono stage is like the dac. got to have both. but the biggest difference between vinyl and digital is the variance of the media. everyone can own any digital file, that is easy. whereas the best vinyl pressings are the stumbling block of vinyl. with digital the dac does the heaviest lifting, with vinyl a decent turntable and phono stage well set up, will surpass the best one's with the best pressing compared to an ordinary pressing on the best vinyl hardware. media is king. it's just different.

But I have one more question if it’s ok to ask. is the msb you have is able to stream off a net work or drives from other storage mediums IE nas on a network
have you compared its own media playback software to the extreme ?
My point is whike I’m sure the extreme might surpass it ill
bet it’s also a window into an alt sound of very high quality as well.

 

[Gregadd]

Here’s a build of one in silver

View attachment 85579

Are you in the cue for pne? If I may be so presumptuous that might get me to California .

 

[Kingrex]

Oddly one hesitation I have with Lampizator that others call a benefit is tube rolling.

 

[K3RMIT]

I can see your point but it’s not bad once you have one. there is plenty of guidance on tubes
many roads to heavens gates

 

[nquery]

Yes it is, it is the best we know thats why we use it. Not everyone is aware that it has full optoisolation and double layer power supply.

Interesting. So is this the JL Sounds USB card you are using in your DAC's ??? http://jlsounds.com/i2soverusb.html . I do see it mentions Galvanic isolation and the option for dual/separate power supplies. Wasn't aware of that.

 

[Steve williams]

Interesting. So is this the JL Sounds USB card you are using in your DAC's ??? http://jlsounds.com/i2soverusb.html

I see it mentions Galvanic isolation and the option for dual/separate power supplies. Wasn't aware of that.

Plus ….if you are an Extreme user with the DAC your DAC must have the JL Sounds USB card in order to use the TAS. My Pacific came with the older card and last year when Taiko released TAS I bought the new JL Sounds from Lukasz , had it installed and my sound has never been so good. But wait I’m seeing the Horizon in the distance. I’m betting the Pacific will pale in comparison to the Horizon

 

[Mike Lavigne]

But I have one more question if it’s ok to ask. is the msb you have is able to stream off a net work or drives from other storage mediums IE nas on a network
have you compared its own media playback software to the extreme ?
My point is whike I’m sure the extreme might surpass it ill
bet it’s also a window into an alt sound of very high quality as well.

my network includes 2 mirroring Synology 30tb NAS's; one located physically upstairs above my listening room in my barn, and the other inside my home. they both have copies of my files, and i have those for file security. the files i play are on PCIe drives inside the Extreme. when i first got the Extreme i used it as a file player, but did not store my files there. but those internal drives do sound quite a bit better than the remote NAS's.

my NAS's do not currently have any playback software. but certainly i could easily install JRiver or some other software and play files from there into my dac. but i know that would not be close to the performance i get from playing files on the Extreme internal drives. but it would still be pretty good....."maybe"......very high quality".....in any case not bad.

Roon resides on my Extreme; which includes Tidal and Quboz streaming. those do sound very fine but not quite as good as my internal drives sound. i can also use the TAS Taiko proprietary music management software too.

my guess is that the least performing of these choices would be the NAS sourced files, but maybe they would be better than the streaming. hard to say exactly. been a while since i listened that way and no easy way to try it.

bottom line; good quality digital file performance can be found without the Extreme. in degrees. some choices closer to the highest level than others, but just play files from your laptop or phone and you are not going to be at the higher performance level no matter the dac. and the closer you get the more it will cost you. serious DIY'ers have been playing this game forever, and now many gave up and acquired an Extreme.

 

[ctydwn]

Just finished listening for 2 hours and for me the Pacific is and has been jaw dropping and I absolutely love my current set of tubes. Many folks on this thread, as well as hearing about Emile’s positive experience, convinced me that the leap into the Pacific would be well worth it, especially given the synergy with the Extreme. Absolutely no regrets.

Now tonight, I tried to imagine what may change with the Horizon. How could it possibly be better? Saturation, tonal density, dynamics, staging etc.? How would the various Horizon tube offerings match up maintaining the current resolution, pace and dynamics I hear?

I know many others longer than me have believed fully in Lukasz/ Lampizator and the team. Various informative threads re: Lampizator on WBF, Lukasz's endorsement of the Horizon relative to the Pacific and the engaged community lending future advice gives me further faith to make the leap. Wishing a successful rollout and can't wait to hear the latest creation.

 

[VoicesInMyHead]

Oddly one hesitation I have with Lampizator that others call a benefit is tube rolling.

I felt the same for a long time, I actually owned 4 Lampi's before I even tried a different tube than what was supplied (what was I thinking?!). I liked what tubes did to the sound but had no interest in rolling them myself. I probably felt that I had no knowledge about tubes and just looking at the market was like a big unknown jungle and I had no idea where to even begin. It wasn't until I got the Baltic 3 that I realized how much fun it can be! I surprisingly quickly got into what tubes felt interesting and what I wanted to try, even though it took a lot of researching and reading on different forums etc. Today I couldn't be happier! (uhm, maybe a Horizon would make me more happy?!).

In the past I've had equipment with tubes hidden inside the boxes and felt it was like the best of 2 worlds, but today I just love the exposed tubes in the way LampizatOr and many others are doing it, inviting tube rolling and making it super simple.No need to touch if you don't want to, but it's more of a privilege than a burden to be honest!

 

[mr.gregdee]

so no need for a taiko?

Let your Ears be the Judges, whatever the medium, source or the system in general.

 

[mr.gregdee]

i think that when we are talking about phono cartridges, tone arms, and phono pre's, the best one's of each category are able to take most advantage of the best partnering product. there are also issues of synergy too. so the most capable of one piece of the chain does not reduce the advantage of better partnering gear, it increases it.

the same for dacs and servers, and throw in interfaces and cables too. better partnering gear advances the result. period.

the idea that a dac, any dac, might somehow overcome lesser quality data streams is nonsensical. garbage in/garbage out. the more pure the dac, the more the lack of quality it is fed gets revealed.

will we all agree on what is best or most transparent? no. but that does not change the basic idea.

the best source/server/transport will push the best dac further.

well said Mike

 

[mr.gregdee]

Kind of reminds me of....View attachment 85656

The best in life always is coming from watching the nature close , isn't it ?

 

[mr.gregdee]

Oddly one hesitation I have with Lampizator that others call a benefit is tube rolling.

Hi , I kind of understand that point you did raise as I had those thoughts myself too. I was thinking if there is a change of voltage/amperage needed between all those type of the triodes with all the different parameters and specs it must be some deterioration from the maximum quality they are capable to deliver in the rolling circuit in comparison to an optimised one. Funny enough those doubts had been extended to the amps as well as at that time I was also a distribution hub for the Tektron amps, which had been offering the same solution.

Of course I had lots of opportunities to compare the one type build vs rolling engine models. Most on the amps but I always supplied clients with some GG /B7 builds for the single chosen type of tubes only, so with the optimisation. To answer your question quickly, the difference was more audible in the amp then they were in the DACs , I guess perhaps due to they are more low current drawing devices. And the 2nd, the difference wasn't all that big in general anyway.

Mostly due to the tubes has a range of curve in which they are operating perfectly fine, just slightly different sonic wise. And those sonic preferences are also different for everybody and the best to be judged in the context of the system. Example: we have customers who tried PAC and liked it, but prefered keeping GG2 as they liked it more with their system. We also have one customer, who after changing amplification in his system moved to PAC, as it then became the more preferable in the new reality. On the other hand the triode engine is more radical than the self biassing circuit for the EL/ KT 6.3V pentode tubes, like one designed to work in the TRP2 platform, whatever way they are connected to work in the circuit ( Pentode, Triode or UL). As Horizon takes rather that approach further , leaving DHT top achievement to its own life I don't see that matter to be valid with that particular DAC.

Personally I think having a DHT DAC with the tube rolling engine gives customer more flexibility, definitely gets that to us on the demo scenario.But as a purist , I kept my private GG dac build for the type 45 tube only, simply due to I like that one most, as everyone who read our tube rolling chapters on the dedicated group did find. It is not the secret. But when I was using std vs. personal the difference was small, but towards direction which is my personal preference. But I also must say that changes in the software which are available today, as an extra tool for final voicing for the customer/ user are making it possible and not that difficult to make them both sounding as close that I can't tell which one is playing, neither are close beta-testers who are a part of those listening sessions.

So, in one word don't be afraid You can always have it optimised anyway you prefer.
Hope that helped a bit to make that murky waters more inhabitable

 

[K3RMIT]

my network includes 2 mirroring Synology 30tb NAS's; one located physically upstairs above my listening room in my barn, and the other inside my home. they both have copies of my files, and i have those for file security. the files i play are on PCIe drives inside the Extreme. when i first got the Extreme i used it as a file player, but did not store my files there. but those internal drives do sound quite a bit better than the remote NAS's.

my NAS's do not currently have any playback software. but certainly i could easily install JRiver or some other software and play files from there into my dac. but i know that would not be close to the performance i get from playing files on the Extreme internal drives. but it would still be pretty good....."maybe"......very high quality".....in any case not bad.

Roon resides on my Extreme; which includes Tidal and Quboz streaming. those do sound very fine but not quite as good as my internal drives sound. i can also use the TAS Taiko proprietary music management software too.

my guess is that the least performing of these choices would be the NAS sourced files, but maybe they would be better than the streaming. hard to say exactly. been a while since i listened that way and no easy way to try it.

bottom line; good quality digital file performance can be found without the Extreme. in degrees. some choices closer to the highest level than others, but just play files from your laptop or phone and you are not going to be at the higher performance level no matter the dac. and the closer you get the more it will cost you. serious DIY'ers have been playing this game forever, and now many gave up and acquired an Extreme.

Can the msb play music directly from a net work source with its own playback software ? it’s been a while but I recall they did. there system is non DIY . i do feel internal storage in a server can be better if the NAS amd network is not optimized well. given your system may have a level of detail above most you may hear what most can’t.

 

[Kingrex]

my network includes 2 mirroring Synology 30tb NAS's; one located physically upstairs above my listening room in my barn, and the other inside my home. they both have copies of my files, and i have those for file security.

Have you removed drives for safety. I believe a corrupt drive will mirror its corruption to all the other drives unless you physically remove the drie and store it at my house!!!!!!!

WD Red are so inexpensive. I have one in a safe at my house and one at a friends house. If I add a pile of CD, I will redo my backups.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Have you removed drives for safety. I believe a corrupt drive will mirror its corruption to all the other drives unless you physically remove the drie and store it at my house!!!!!!!

WD Red are so inexpensive. I have one in a safe at my house and one at a friends house. If I add a pile of CD, I will redo my backups.

no. but i think i'm covered.

my son the network engineer monitors my 2 mirroring NAS's and has alarms that tell him if one of the drives acts up. (they self diagnose) the odds of a number of drives failing simultaneously is remote, and i always have the files on the Extreme as back up to those other two. since i'm adding files here and there it's better i don't have to think about that.

my wife uses the house NAS for her Sonos listening (uses my Roon and Tidal log-on's too), so she is another alarm.

 

[K3RMIT]

I would never have a nas in mirror mode period
whom ever has set this up is maybe why you like the internal drives more. i also have a 60 TB nas but it’s in JBOD mode
I do have many drives in a type of safe to keep a copy of all my music. what Rex is saying is true as well. anyone who claims analog is too complex has no idea how many digital pitfalls there is once you do not just pop in cd,s. mike do you ever play held media ?
for me it’s suggest alt views as well. a good CD player or transport has a sound and tends to be more powerful at times.

 

[Kingrex]

no. but i think i'm covered.

my son the network engineer monitors my 2 mirroring NAS's and has alarms that tell him if one of the drives acts up. (they self diagnose) the odds of a number of drives failing simultaneously is remote, and i always have the files on the Extreme as back up to those other two. since i'm adding files here and there it's better i don't have to think about that.

my wife uses the house NAS for her Sonos listening (uses my Roon and Tidal log-on's too), so she is another alarm.

If you got a virus on a drive, it would mirror to all drives. Or so I am told. Or corrupted files will mirror the corruption to all drives. That is what I am told about a mirror. But I am far from a tech expert like your son. For safety, I would keep a drive in a vault. Maybe once a year break it out and update it with the new files, then put it away again. Every 5 years mirror that safty drive with a freah drive. Thats me. I have ripped 8 or 9 friends CD collection. I would have no way to recover the files if my system were corrupted.