LampizatOr Horizon - Tube Rolling Paradise
- Thread starter Golum
- Start date
I am finally getting around to providing an update on my horizon. As some of you know, I am functionally blind, and my right arm is in a sling from shoulder surgery so if there are grammatical errors, so be it.
I received my Horizon in October and I have played with the same tubes that were provided to me from Lampi. I did not change any tubes for the first two months as I wanted to get a feel for the sound of the H.. The tubes that were provided are as follows:
KR KT88
KR 5U4G
Sylvania VT99
In December, I purchased the Aries Cerat Essentia mono amps. These amps replaced my Canary Audio grand reference 300 B mono amps. When you have 16 western electric 300 B tubes the sound is definitely different. Each amplifier has its pluses and minuses but I am happy with what I have.
While I am an audiophile, I am not up on all of the terms that I generally read about on this forum. So for me, it really is a matter of what my ears hear and what I enjoy listening to.
For the last 25 days, I have been doing a lot of tube rolling, and will provide my feedback below. The first tube I changed was going to a Aqua 274B from Sophia electric. As I stated in a post up above, I could not believe that a rectifier could provide that much improvement and sound quality, but it did for me.
I made a mistake with the next tube that I rolled in because I knew it would be good. I added the BRIMAR yellow T 6060 tube. This tube might be one of the best 12ATZ tubes on the planet.
Lastly, I added my secret weapon in the 1959 TUNG SOL NOS 6550 pentode tube. After adding each tube, the sound just got better. This will be my go-to pentode tube forever.
I said I made a mistake by starting with the 6060 tubes because I had numerous other tubes that I wanted to try. All of the tubes that I am using are all NOS from the 50s and the 60s. It should also be noted that I am running the Horizon in SE mode.
The next two tubes I tried were supposed to be better than the BRIMAR tubes. One was a RCA 5963 12AU7 black plate and the other was a GE 12AU7 Black plate. Both of these tubes are rare and not easy to find. Both of these tubes, unfortunately, did not work as expected in the H. They are very low gain tubes, and as a result, appear slightly grainy, and I need to adjust the volume to between 34 and 37 to get the same experience, as I did, from all of the other tubes at a volume control level of 30. I do not have a preamp in my system so I am using the H volume control setting.
My next tube was a RCA 12 ATZ black one half wing plate. It was definitely an improvement but did not compare to the BRIMAR.
Next up was the Toshiba, ECC 82 12AU7 Mullard equivalent. I liked this tube a lot, but it still was missing a little bit of bass for me.
The next five tubes I will mention all could be a triode that I could live with for the rest of my life and it was very hard to decipher differences in sound. I will start with the GE 12ATZ small round gray plate. This tube had a deep, clean base, it was very tight, clean, and fast. The vocals were really clear.
The Siemens ECC 81 was just a fabulous tube from the 60s era. It was German made and very high-quality. It was extremely close to the RCA that I just talked about above.
In the final three, the Sylvania 12ATZ shiny black plate was just magical. The sound quality and the soundstage were fantastic. It had punch, dynamics, and was clean, clear, and crisp with a very deep bass. I was able to pick up the micro details of instruments that others I did not. With this tube, it felt more 3-D. It had more of a forward sound. I would put it as an equal to the Brimar 6060.
When we were at Steve's house in February, Lukasz picked out another of my tubes which was the Sylvania 12AU7 shiny black plate. At that event, Lukasz thought that tube was better for him than the Brimar 6060 due to the better base. Unfortunately, my wife broke that tube when she was trying to insert it into the adapters so I did not get to listen to it but I have one coming so I will provide more feedback when it comes. I have a Woo adapter and I also bought another one from a company that I cannot remember. I would say the quality of the Woo adapter might be microscopically a little bit better, but there is absolutely no difference in sound.
Just to be sure of my findings, I went back to the Brimar 6060 yellow T and I felt the same that the Sylvania and Brimar were the two best tubes in conjunction with the 274B and the TS 6550.
I had one more tube to try that I knew nothing about and it was a BRIMAR 13D9 tube from the 1960s. It is a black plate designed for piston engines and airplanes and field surveillance radios. It only took 30 seconds for me to say, so far this is my endgame tube. The bass was outstanding. It was fast, and the vocals were soulful and distinct. It had a major punch. I could feel the stage presence of a live concert. I think part of the reason that it performed better than all of the other tubes was that it was a higher-gain tube, and it just had more power. I was told that this tube is a much later version of the 12ATZ tubes and that they measure far above normal NOS specifications for that time, which is considered to be the late 60s.
Every tube that I tried was an excellent tube. I think the main difference, in reality, is there are gain differences between 12AU7 and 12ATZ. I just like tubes with higher gain.
If there are one or two other tubes that I should try, please advise. I am not a tube roller and the only reason I did this was that my shoulder is in a sling, and I had nothing else to do. I will be happy with my combination of the Brimar 13D9, TS 6550, and the Sophia electric 274B aqua.
During this whole testing process, I kept the volume level at 30 and played the same group of songs which I can tell you now my wife is sick of hearing. The majority of these tubes have not ever been discussed in this forum so in a small way I hope this helps.
I received my Horizon in October and I have played with the same tubes that were provided to me from Lampi. I did not change any tubes for the first two months as I wanted to get a feel for the sound of the H.. The tubes that were provided are as follows:
KR KT88
KR 5U4G
Sylvania VT99
In December, I purchased the Aries Cerat Essentia mono amps. These amps replaced my Canary Audio grand reference 300 B mono amps. When you have 16 western electric 300 B tubes the sound is definitely different. Each amplifier has its pluses and minuses but I am happy with what I have.
While I am an audiophile, I am not up on all of the terms that I generally read about on this forum. So for me, it really is a matter of what my ears hear and what I enjoy listening to.
For the last 25 days, I have been doing a lot of tube rolling, and will provide my feedback below. The first tube I changed was going to a Aqua 274B from Sophia electric. As I stated in a post up above, I could not believe that a rectifier could provide that much improvement and sound quality, but it did for me.
I made a mistake with the next tube that I rolled in because I knew it would be good. I added the BRIMAR yellow T 6060 tube. This tube might be one of the best 12ATZ tubes on the planet.
Lastly, I added my secret weapon in the 1959 TUNG SOL NOS 6550 pentode tube. After adding each tube, the sound just got better. This will be my go-to pentode tube forever.
I said I made a mistake by starting with the 6060 tubes because I had numerous other tubes that I wanted to try. All of the tubes that I am using are all NOS from the 50s and the 60s. It should also be noted that I am running the Horizon in SE mode.
The next two tubes I tried were supposed to be better than the BRIMAR tubes. One was a RCA 5963 12AU7 black plate and the other was a GE 12AU7 Black plate. Both of these tubes are rare and not easy to find. Both of these tubes, unfortunately, did not work as expected in the H. They are very low gain tubes, and as a result, appear slightly grainy, and I need to adjust the volume to between 34 and 37 to get the same experience, as I did, from all of the other tubes at a volume control level of 30. I do not have a preamp in my system so I am using the H volume control setting.
My next tube was a RCA 12 ATZ black one half wing plate. It was definitely an improvement but did not compare to the BRIMAR.
Next up was the Toshiba, ECC 82 12AU7 Mullard equivalent. I liked this tube a lot, but it still was missing a little bit of bass for me.
The next five tubes I will mention all could be a triode that I could live with for the rest of my life and it was very hard to decipher differences in sound. I will start with the GE 12ATZ small round gray plate. This tube had a deep, clean base, it was very tight, clean, and fast. The vocals were really clear.
The Siemens ECC 81 was just a fabulous tube from the 60s era. It was German made and very high-quality. It was extremely close to the RCA that I just talked about above.
In the final three, the Sylvania 12ATZ shiny black plate was just magical. The sound quality and the soundstage were fantastic. It had punch, dynamics, and was clean, clear, and crisp with a very deep bass. I was able to pick up the micro details of instruments that others I did not. With this tube, it felt more 3-D. It had more of a forward sound. I would put it as an equal to the Brimar 6060.
When we were at Steve's house in February, Lukasz picked out another of my tubes which was the Sylvania 12AU7 shiny black plate. At that event, Lukasz thought that tube was better for him than the Brimar 6060 due to the better base. Unfortunately, my wife broke that tube when she was trying to insert it into the adapters so I did not get to listen to it but I have one coming so I will provide more feedback when it comes. I have a Woo adapter and I also bought another one from a company that I cannot remember. I would say the quality of the Woo adapter might be microscopically a little bit better, but there is absolutely no difference in sound.
Just to be sure of my findings, I went back to the Brimar 6060 yellow T and I felt the same that the Sylvania and Brimar were the two best tubes in conjunction with the 274B and the TS 6550.
I had one more tube to try that I knew nothing about and it was a BRIMAR 13D9 tube from the 1960s. It is a black plate designed for piston engines and airplanes and field surveillance radios. It only took 30 seconds for me to say, so far this is my endgame tube. The bass was outstanding. It was fast, and the vocals were soulful and distinct. It had a major punch. I could feel the stage presence of a live concert. I think part of the reason that it performed better than all of the other tubes was that it was a higher-gain tube, and it just had more power. I was told that this tube is a much later version of the 12ATZ tubes and that they measure far above normal NOS specifications for that time, which is considered to be the late 60s.
Every tube that I tried was an excellent tube. I think the main difference, in reality, is there are gain differences between 12AU7 and 12ATZ. I just like tubes with higher gain.
If there are one or two other tubes that I should try, please advise. I am not a tube roller and the only reason I did this was that my shoulder is in a sling, and I had nothing else to do. I will be happy with my combination of the Brimar 13D9, TS 6550, and the Sophia electric 274B aqua.
During this whole testing process, I kept the volume level at 30 and played the same group of songs which I can tell you now my wife is sick of hearing. The majority of these tubes have not ever been discussed in this forum so in a small way I hope this helps.
Thank you for sharing !
Now that many people had their Horizon for some time, I was wondering if we could briefly share the combo we are using ( and list what wehave tried ).
On my side, didn't do much tube rolling yet...
- Recti : Tak 274B ( tried KR 5U4G RK and EML 274B)
- Output : TS KT170 ( tried KR KT88)
- Dual triodes : the provided Psvane blue balls ( didn't try anything else yet but will start soon)
Alex
Now that many people had their Horizon for some time, I was wondering if we could briefly share the combo we are using ( and list what wehave tried ).
On my side, didn't do much tube rolling yet...
- Recti : Tak 274B ( tried KR 5U4G RK and EML 274B)
- Output : TS KT170 ( tried KR KT88)
- Dual triodes : the provided Psvane blue balls ( didn't try anything else yet but will start soon)
Alex
- Recti : Western Electric 422A ( tried KR 5U4G RK, Takatsuki 274B, Brimar 5U4G,Marconi, GEC U52)
- Output : Mullard EL34 xf2, (tried TS KT170, Mullard EL34 xf3, KR KT88, Gold Lion KT77( stock), Bendix 6384)
- Dual triodes : Mullard ECC32 or Visseaux ecc31 both are exceptional tubes (tried psvane, linlai 6SN7, Thompson 5687WA, Meltz, 6H8C)
- Output : Mullard EL34 xf2, (tried TS KT170, Mullard EL34 xf3, KR KT88, Gold Lion KT77( stock), Bendix 6384)
- Dual triodes : Mullard ECC32 or Visseaux ecc31 both are exceptional tubes (tried psvane, linlai 6SN7, Thompson 5687WA, Meltz, 6H8C)
Steve williams
Site Founder, Site Co-Owner, Administrator
IMO it's interesting to note what other Horizon users have settled on but at the end of the day it is all system dependent and what light's up one's ears as Willgolf so aptly stated
Isn't that the same?Either that or “deep debt“
Greetings from Switzerland, David.
I didn't like the 422A with my other tube compliment. Synergy is a bitch.
Steve williams
Site Founder, Site Co-Owner, Administrator
that’s the key. Totally system dependent and also personal preference
When rolling tubes I have found I needed to change level to have the same measured loudness in equipment having no global feedback loop - I had variations of up to 4 dB just using different tubes, up to 2 dB when using the same type of tubes .
I did the same thing. I started at 30 and then if I thought the tube did not deliver I did raise the volume between 34-37. Right or wrong, I did use that as a negative when listening.
@ Sampijanna
I did not compare the TS6550 to the KT 170. Again, maybe I made a quick decision but when I heard the KT 170 at the launch at Steve's house it did not sound good. It was pointed out at the time it was a brand-new tube and not broken in. I am really happy with the TS 6550 NOS tube.
Hearing all these joyful descriptions of tube rolling made me realize the true genius of Lukasz lies in more than creating a wonderful series of DACs. What he did was unleash this TRP zeitgeist within all of us to experiment, to discover new ways of tuning components by tube rolling. Although tube DACs have been around a long time, ARC has had tube DACs for decades, no one before Lukasz made it so easy, indeed encouraged tube rolling.
ARC officially frowns on tube rolling, as do the other established companies like Conrad Johnson, McIntosh etc. Lukasz was probably one of the first to unleash the TRP gene in all of us. Who doesn’t want to feel like they have a moment of creativity in finding a new tube combo that works in their system. The established brands are so superior in their highbrow attitudes. ARC and other companies say: WE have decided what tubes go into our products. You listen to our choices because WE decided that‘s best for you.
Lukasz decided early on to encourage tube rolling. As the old Latin phrase used by the Roman poet Virgil in his famous poem Aeneid says:
Audente Fortuna juvat. (Fortune favors the brave), Book X, 284, Virgil, Aeneid
ARC officially frowns on tube rolling, as do the other established companies like Conrad Johnson, McIntosh etc. Lukasz was probably one of the first to unleash the TRP gene in all of us. Who doesn’t want to feel like they have a moment of creativity in finding a new tube combo that works in their system. The established brands are so superior in their highbrow attitudes. ARC and other companies say: WE have decided what tubes go into our products. You listen to our choices because WE decided that‘s best for you.
Lukasz decided early on to encourage tube rolling. As the old Latin phrase used by the Roman poet Virgil in his famous poem Aeneid says:
Audente Fortuna juvat. (Fortune favors the brave), Book X, 284, Virgil, Aeneid
spot on, except to add that the zeitgeist was released before with Big 7. And while there are some tube dacs around, they weren’t DHT. Lukasz essentially started using the SETs philosophy in dacs. Plus, it is not just tube rolling, or is the ability to adjusts the Dac to the system using tubes. Other dacs or CD player, you just plug in, and all you can adjust are externals (cabling etc).
Lukasz therefore easily got many SET based high efficiency users, but he also gave exposure to tubes to the SS guys who otherwise would not have had this exposure, except to one or two valves in AR or VTL. 101d, 45, 242, 300b, PX4, PX25, etc are exotic DHTs, known only to extremely high efficiency speaker owners. 300b was the only tube otherwise more commonly known along with 211 and 845 outside that world.
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You will be blown away by the sonic gain possible over the Blue Tennis Balls
Steve williams
Site Founder, Site Co-Owner, Administrator
I wasn't impressed with it either when we played it at my house with Lukasz. In fact after everyone left I texted Lukasz and told him I was going to keep looking for a replacement to the KT-170. It was then that Lukasz told me I should not give up on it so fast as h thought it to be a very good tube. Im happy I took his advice because once it settled I ended up buying 2 more back up sets. It mates really well with my Tak 274B and TS 6SN7 GT VT231 round plate. I have several back up sets of these as well
It is the danger of carrying tube rolling without a measuring instrument. In such case we are not grading the tube for sound quality, but mainly for its transconductance. A pink noise track and a sound-meter with a floor support - not hand held - can be of great help.
When choosing a tube for the VTL 7.5 mk3 I found that tube rolling was extremely time consuming due to this need - a 1 dB difference is enough confuse us.
I am sure. I "just" need to find a reliable tube seller of NOS tubes as so far I only bought "modern production" tubes for my gears...You will be blown away by the sonic gain possible over the Blue Tennis Balls
You raise a key point which is the distinction between a seller of NOS tubes and a reliable seller of NOS tubes. Many of us rely on Brent Jesse, who is excellent and reputable.
Brent's main strength is not only meticulous balancing, but he developed a unique tester for noise, which is the bane if all tube users. Microphonics and noise can obscure any tube's potential goodness. Many tube sellers say they "listen" to the tubes in their gear for noise, but my experience is that such methods are spotty at best. Brent's testing is far more reliable. If he says a tube is quiet, it is! His website describes his balancing and noise testing methods in detail.
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