Really sorry to hear about your experience. Have rolled that tube with two different adaptors without issue. Currently roll over 120 tubes for the Horizon (on 3rd Horizon as I upgraded, currently 360) without a single tube failure. I do understand the transformers are slightly larger in the 360 but I do not know if that would have any impact on tube vitals.
LampizatOr Horizon - Tube Rolling Paradise
- Thread starter Golum
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Steve williams
Site Founder, Site Co-Owner, Administrator
I havent rolled nearly close to you but Ive had no issues either
Very sorry to hear this. I hope you send the tube and adapter to Takasz to test out. I will hold out for a positive outcome, but I suspect Lampizator will blame you either way.
I agree fully with @keithc on both points 1) I have successfully rolled tubes across multiple Lampi dacs with no issues, including many from Takasz; 2) I also wouldn’t want to buy a tube product that didnt allow tube rolling. For me that is pointless. I would get a Playback Designs in that case (personally)
I am baffled by alll this, as it seems so easy to fix and it also seems that not getting ahead of this issue will be a painful lesson for Lampizator. I continue to support Lukasz and Lampi and believe in the brand. My overall experience is net positive, but there are always improvements any of us can make (in our character, work, fitness, etc.). Admitting mistakes and correcting course is never a sign of weakness, from my perspective, but a strength. Just my two measly cents, worth about that.
I agree fully with @keithc on both points 1) I have successfully rolled tubes across multiple Lampi dacs with no issues, including many from Takasz; 2) I also wouldn’t want to buy a tube product that didnt allow tube rolling. For me that is pointless. I would get a Playback Designs in that case (personally)
I am baffled by alll this, as it seems so easy to fix and it also seems that not getting ahead of this issue will be a painful lesson for Lampizator. I continue to support Lukasz and Lampi and believe in the brand. My overall experience is net positive, but there are always improvements any of us can make (in our character, work, fitness, etc.). Admitting mistakes and correcting course is never a sign of weakness, from my perspective, but a strength. Just my two measly cents, worth about that.
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The Valvo G2504 and the TP Adapter will be technically inspected and I will let you all know the outcome. It interesting for us to know what the problem was…
Hey fellow H1 and H360 owners, I have a question regarding the two dual triodes in what I call the "converter" seats of our DAC. I have a high quality 12AU7 - 6SN7 adapter made by Woo Audio, which confirmed it can also be used for a E80CC tube. I have found the E80CC to be a magical tube in my Octave Jubilee preamp.
I have a matched pair of NOS/NIB Valvo E80CC tubes and I would like to try them in the converter seats of my H360. I know I can use a 12AU7, but I also know that the E80CC is not an exact equivalent/replacement because its filament demand is slightly higher than a 12AU7. Do you know if an E80CC can be used in a Horizon and has anyone used it?
Thanks.
I have a matched pair of NOS/NIB Valvo E80CC tubes and I would like to try them in the converter seats of my H360. I know I can use a 12AU7, but I also know that the E80CC is not an exact equivalent/replacement because its filament demand is slightly higher than a 12AU7. Do you know if an E80CC can be used in a Horizon and has anyone used it?
Thanks.
Steve williams
Site Founder, Site Co-Owner, Administrator
Hi Steve. Yes, I did ask Lukasz about the E80CC. I haven't heard back. I suspect he's pretty busy. So, I thought I'd ask my What's Best Fellows, who appear to be very prolific tube rollers.
BTW: Is there a separate topic or thread talking about running a Horizon in SE vs. Balanced mode? I see that you have configured your H360 in SE. I have always operated my H1 and now H360 in balanced mode because the digital engine is a balanced architecture. I have several questions I'd like to ask about SE operation. They may have been addressed in a separate WBF thread but I haven't found it and I don't want to raise them here if this isn't the right place for it on our site.
Thanks,
Ray
BTW: Is there a separate topic or thread talking about running a Horizon in SE vs. Balanced mode? I see that you have configured your H360 in SE. I have always operated my H1 and now H360 in balanced mode because the digital engine is a balanced architecture. I have several questions I'd like to ask about SE operation. They may have been addressed in a separate WBF thread but I haven't found it and I don't want to raise them here if this isn't the right place for it on our site.
Thanks,
Ray
Steve williams
Site Founder, Site Co-Owner, Administrator
I run mine SE as my Lamm preamp is SE IN a pseudo balanced OUT to the amp. Im very happy with the sound. The good news is I only need two power tubes so it does save $$$ on those vintage tubes
Thanks Steve. That is actually one of my primary questions. In SE configuration, the Horizon's operative tubes are located in the "L-POS" and "R-POS" positions (i.e. the left pentode bank), but doesn't the same level of current flow through the non-operative tubes in the right pentode bank ("L-NEG & R-NEG" positions)? If so, then the non-operative tubes would still slowly degrade at the same pace as the operative tubes?
Or, do you manage that by using inexpensive non-vintage tubes in the right pentode bank that are matched to the operative "vintage" tubes, so the Horizon's transformers and rectifier see the same (i.e. even) load?
Sorry , for being the slow one in this class.
Ray
Steve williams
Site Founder, Site Co-Owner, Administrator
I dont use my good ones in the right bank. I have a pair of TS KT170 in the right bank. Lukasz also said the right bank can be left open. My OCD personality needed something there so I used KT170
Steve williams
Site Founder, Site Co-Owner, Administrator
It probably wasn't me as I do not know what tubes Laszlo prefers. Regarding his adapters, I am unfortunately not a fan of his adapters as they use silver wire which just does not work for me with the P17c pentodes I use. (I don't need adapters for my recti or triodes). I did however have Laszlo make some adapters for me with Mudorf Angelique wire and I was very impressed. I found the silver wire adapters a bit sterile and metallic sounding and somewhat devoid of musicality, which the now discontinued "mullingmrs" Chinese adapters have in spades although with a very slight decrease in transparency. But the Angelique wire adapters add far more honest timbre and tone compared the silver wire adapters plus it retains superb musicality and transparency. A keeper for me. You couldn't pry them away from my hands!
Hi Marty. So you are a fan of Laszlo's adapters. Did you get Laszlo to use the 2MM Blue or Black copper wire? The Mundorf Angelique Gray/Blue, which uses copper, silver and gold, may be a sonically interesting choice
Hi Steve. Your response is very helpful. Thank you.
I'll do a SE vs. Balanced comparison after I get SE interconnects, leaving the right bank open. If I prefer SE then I'll grind off and silicone over the P8A side contacts of a failed pair of SP17c tubes and plop them into an extra set of TP adapters - so I can "call" your OCD and "raise" it to the level of mine.
As I mentioned, I'm certainly not a huge fan of his silver wire adapters for pentodes, but I very much enjoy his Angelique wired pentode adapters. Mundorf Angelique is by definition a proprietary formulation that uses mostly copper wire containing a small amount of silver and gold. (I also use custom Angelique wire for my DC power cables (from Ghent audio) to feed my Taiko DCD. I'm not sure exactly what model or color of Angelique wire Laszlo used for the adapters he made for me.
It's interesting that in recent years, several audio companies are blending various metals in either their signal or power cables using both separate metals in combination stranding or a "blended" amalgam of a single composite metal typically comprised of copper, silver and gold.
I'll do a SE vs. Balanced comparison after I get SE interconnects, leaving the right bank open. If I prefer SE then I'll grind off and silicone over the P8A side contacts of a failed pair of SP17c tubes and plop them into an extra set of TP adapters - so I can "call" your OCD and "raise" it to the level of mine.
On the issue of balanced vs single ended for the Lampi, here's my experience, FWIW.
As you know the debate between balanced vs single ended permeates almost every aspect of high-end audio. It made no sense to take a side without data, so I thought, what the heck, I'll do the experiment myself. What I was surprised to learn is that the absolute best sound for me in my system is to run the Lampi single ended, but with a twist. I still use a balanced XLR cable to connect the Lampi H360 to my Soulution 727 preamp. Why? Well, the logic for running single ended has been advocated by many, including Dan D'Agostino who said that getting output devices to work equally well in a balanced configuration is nearly impossible due to differences in the individual gain and amplification differences in the transistors themselves. These minute differences matter so much to Dan that for his top-of-the-line Relentless monoblocks, he spends countless hours selecting and balancing the transistors for each leg of the XLR outputs, and this is what contributes in part to their extreme cost. Keep in mind this is for modern day transistors, which are made within a spec framework that many manufacturers consider good enough that they think the efforts that D'Agostino makes are not even necessary to get good balanced performance. Now, let; move to old NOS tubes, whose availability are nowhere close to those of a modern transistor. It would be essentially impossible to believe that the V vs I curves of such tubes could even come close to being perfectly identical from one tube to another right out of the box.
The bottom line is that in my H360, when I play balanced, the sound is ever so slightly less pure, less clean, and ultimately not as musically compelling as when running single ended. It's a case of something added in balanced mode that is ever-so-slightly pernicious but audible, rather than subtractive defined as having something missing that is normally present when the comparison was made. The downside is that it's often hard for an audiophile with any component of OCD (who, me? Yes, sir!) to accept that their DAC sounds best with 2 tubes missing and that half of their expensive balanced cable is not being used at all! But it's such an easy experiment to do. Use simple material (girl with guitar, or a single piano recording). Just play something, remove the 2 tubes from the right bank, turn up your volume to compensate voltage 6dB and listen again. (Since power is proportional to the square of the voltage, a 6 dB increase in voltage results in a 3 dB increase in power if the load impedance remains the same). The balanced output always resulted in a slightly less musically pleasing sound for me. The reason is presumably that its basically impossible to get both the Vhot and Vcold legs of the balanced cable to sound identical unless you have hundreds of output devices to use for precise output matching, as D'Agostino does with transistors. However, doing that with 75-year-old tubes is a non-starter. IMHO, balanced output should mainly be used for long runs of 25 ft or more to take advantage of the reduction of common mode noise rejection which is often useful in recording studios and other venues (i.e. sound reinforcement for large amphitheaters). I think the preference for single ended amplification is preferred by several major recording engineers (i.e. Keith Johnson at Spectral/Reference Recordings) for similar reasons.
When I look at my half naked H360 running single ended, I grimace. But when I listen to it running single ended, I just smile.
BTW, another way to make the comparison is the following. You need 2 identical cables, one being XLR terminated and the other RCA. Run both single ended and balanced out from the Lampi to your preamp (different inputs of course). Then you can just flip between preamp inputs to make the comparison. You just need to adjust the preamp by ~6 clicks (or whatever is necessary on your preamp) on the volume control to get a volume match between the two every time you switch inputs. This has the advantage of not having to get up to add or take away 2 tubes in the Lampi when making the comparison. While this method is very useful, there is still the vagaries of using 2 different IC cables each with different terminations and therefore very minute impedance differences. A less "pure" method perhaps, but it's still very useful and typically easier than getting up and adding and removing tubes each time you want to make a comparison. In addition, It is said that critical audio memory lasts about 7 seconds. I can't even get up from the chair and walk to my gear in 7 seconds, not to mention the time it would take to add or remove tubes and then go back to listen. Using this method therefore allows a more instantaneous comparison that might be very helpful as switching preamp inputs and adjusting the volume by 6 clicks remotely can easily be done in that time frame.
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Steve williams
Site Founder, Site Co-Owner, Administrator
I also run my 727 preamp to Gyphon Mephisto monoblocks balanced w XLR. But in my case, I have no choice as the Mephistos only have a balanced input, no RCA. I'd like to do the same experiment, but cannot. Also, since this is SS gear, I think the difference, if there is one, may not be as easy to distinguish. But for a 1 m run between the H360 and the 727, it was an easy experiment to do and the results were easy to hear. It's all good if it makes you smile.
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