Lampizator Horizon v. dCS Vivaldi Apex Listening Comparison

[howiebrou]

i think it's a mistake to use the word 'best' on forums (not that i have not been guilty using it from time to time). i think the farthest we can go is to claim something is our preference of what we have heard, or the best we have heard in our system. or if we are asked about our opinions then it's a little different and we can answer the question.

otherwise it's just polarizing and a challenge to others.

for my own self i did go through a process in my own system to answer my own questions, stepping thru isolating things to find as much truth as possible with known references. and shared that experience. which is no more or less than it was.

do i have an opinion on what digital is best? of course i do. but this thread is not where i will talk about it.

In that case let's change the name of this forum to What's Pretty Good In My Opinion with Caveats and Without Prejudice Forum?

 

[thomask]

It may not be possible to choose one best Dac.

But there are some elite groups.

I am auditioning Ideon Absolute Epsilon at home right now,

It must be the best Dac at my home so far.


I wish to listen to Lampi Horizon and Wadax at Pacific Audiofest.

But during limited show condition , it may not be possible to pin point the best one to my taste.

I am of the opinion is that audio is like nice wines.

There are some elite group of wines.

But it depends on one's taste and main dish to choose the best one.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Well the original premise was a challenge with regards to the claim of 'best digital'.

I would never write such a thing. You may be referring to andromeda's claim that Wadax is best.

 

[howiebrou]

I would never write such a thing. You may be referring to andromeda's claim that Wadax is best.

I was. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

 

[andromedaaudio]

To be more on topic i heard many high $$$$ DCS set ups ( Kharma room Wilson....etc ) , also MSB and off course many lampi tube dacs , plus countless other DACs
The comment that you have to insert a component into your system for the best evaluation might hold some truth , but its practically impossible without having done a pre selection of some sort .
I think most let reviewers / magazines do some sort of pre selection , whats then left is the elite group.
They test those in their system and buy accordingly .
So the big magazines in the US and europe have a big influence .
I think the big distributors in NL for example follow the absolute sound and add the latest greatest to their portfolio , so they have more or less a safe bet (nobody likes to lose money off course )
The big german magazines like stereo had ( may be still have ) a " Besten liste " with points they gave to components

I just made the WADAX comment because to my ears its in a whole other league, and i dont say that often

 

[Audiocrack]

To be more on topic i heard many high $$$$ DCS set ups ( Kharma room Wilson....etc ) , also MSB and off course many lampi tube dacs , plus countless other DACs
The comment that you have to insert a component into your system for the best evaluation might hold some truth , but its practically impossible without having done a pre selection of some sort .
I think most let reviewers / magazines do some sort of pre selection , whats then left is the elite group.
They test those in their system and buy accordingly .
So the big magazines in the US and europe have a big influence .
I think the big distributors in NL for example follow the absolute sound and add the latest greatest to their portfolio , so they have more or less a safe bet (nobody likes to lose money off course )
The big german magazines like stereo had ( may be still have ) a " Besten liste " with points they gave to components

I just made the WADAX comment because to my ears its in a whole other league, and i dont say that often

You might be completely right as regards Wadax

 

[thomask]

To be more on topic i heard many high $$$$ DCS set ups ( Kharma room Wilson....etc ) , also MSB and off course many lampi tube dacs , plus countless other DACs
The comment that you have to insert a component into your system for the best evaluation might hold some truth , but its practically impossible without having done a pre selection of some sort .
I think most let reviewers / magazines do some sort of pre selection , whats then left is the elite group.
They test those in their system and buy accordingly .
So the big magazines in the US and europe have a big influence .
I think the big distributors in NL for example follow the absolute sound and add the latest greatest to their portfolio , so they have more or less a safe bet (nobody likes to lose money off course )
The big german magazines like stereo had ( may be still have ) a " Besten liste " with points they gave to components

I just made the WADAX comment because to my ears its in a whole other league, and i dont say that often

Mike L is also of same opinion.

Now the question is whether only top model is that good which may be out of reach for most folks.

I am curious how lower model of Wadax sounds.

 

[thomask]

This is really nice video showing nuanced details.

I am anxious to listen to Horizon.

I had listend to Wadax today.

The only missing thing from Horizon is fluidity of Wadax.

But Horizon is relatively affordable compared with Wadax.

Let us see what happen.

R I P to Peter Brueninger.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I am anxious to listen to Horizon.

I had listend to Wadax today.

The only missing thing from Horizon is fluidity of Wadax.

Does this mean that you compared on a leisurely basis the Lampizator Horizon to the Wadax side-by-side in the same exact system with no other changes?

 

[thomask]

Does this mean that you compared on a leisurely basis the Lampizator Horizon to the Wadax side-by-side in the same exact system with no other changes?

I wish to do that comparison side by side at the same system.

But I am not sure it will be possible.

About three years ago, I had done side by side comparison between MSB and Lamp Pacific using YG Sonja speaker.

MSB premier was no match to Pacific.

But Select II give more neutral and balanced sound with analog ease than Pacific.

Thus as good as Pacific sounds, it was no match with Select II.

But I am curious how Horizon turn out.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I wish to do that comparison side by side at the same system.

But I am not sure it will be possible.

About three years ago, I had done side by side comparison between MSB and Lamp Pacific using YG Sonja speaker.

MSB premier was no match to Pacific.

But Select II give more neutral and balanced sound with analog ease than Pacific.

Thus as good as Pacific sounds, it was no match with Select II.

But I am curious how Horizon turn out.

Thank you for your reply, but I find your reply confusing.

Are you writing that in the same system you compared, side-by-side:

MSB Premier versus Lampizator Pacific, and

MSB Select II versus Lampizator Pacific?

In each conclusion, what does "no match" mean? According to what sonic preferences -- according to which sonic attributes -- do you mean when you refer to "no match"?

Please tell us your detailed sonic impressions of each DAC, and why you preferred the one you preferred in each comparison.

 

[thomask]

Thank you for your reply, but I find your reply confusing.

Are you writing that in the same system you compared, side-by-side:

MSB Premier versus Lampizator Pacific, and

MSB Select II versus Lampizator Pacific?

In each conclusion, what does "no match" mean? According to what sonic preferences -- according to which sonic attributes -- do you mean when you refer to "no match"?

Please tell us your detailed sonic impressions of each DAC, and why you preferred the one you preferred in each comparison.

Pacific sounds much more dynamic and fuller sound than Premier.

Immediately, I prefer Pacific to Premier.

But Select II give more gracious and balanced sound than Pacific.

Thus disregarding price difference, I prefer Select II to Pacific.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I can report that in our direct comparison of the dCS Vivaldi Apex to several other top DACs* on a leisurely, A/B basis in a familiar system expressions of "another league" and "no match" and "best" are inappropriate, hyperbolic and misleading.**

*I feel truly fortunate and grateful to be participating with pk_LA in a direct comparison audition survey in a familiar system of many of the current top DACs in the world -- a survey which literally no one else has undertaken with these DACs.

**Of course we cannot avoid the unresolvable issue about what quantitative or percentage improvement qualifies as "another league." In other words is a 5% improvement on some parameter "another league" and "no match," or is a 50% improvement on some parameter "another league" and "no match"?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I can report that in our direct comparison of the dCS Vivaldi Apex to several other top DACs* on a leisurely, A/B basis in a familiar system expressions of "another league" and "no match" and "best" are inappropriate, hyperbolic and misleading.

*I feel truly fortunate and grateful to be participating with pk_LA in a direct comparison audition survey in a familiar system of many of the current top DACs in the world -- a survey which literally no one else has undertaken with these DACs.

are you speaking for yourself, or collectively?

 

[Ron Resnick]

are you speaking for yourself, or collectively?

I am speaking only for myself.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I am speaking only for myself.

are you in the market personally for all the dacs you are listening to? or just an observer to the process?

 

[Ron Resnick]

are you in the market personally for all the dacs you are listening to? or just an observer to the process?

I am intending eventually to buy one DAC, not all the DACs. I am just an observer to the process. I have no dog in this hunt.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I am intending eventually to buy one DAC, not all the DACs. I am just an observer to the process. I have no dog in this hunt.

i think that the people who (1) are completely open minded about which dac to choose, and (2) will consider ALL of them, will lead us to the most useful information when they make their choice. they vote with their pocketbook. that is thee data point.

and if it's the 3x to 4x as expensive Wadax, that speaks loudly as to the differences.

and your view on degrees of difference are not nearly as significant since you are not the one buying.

 

[Ron Resnick]

i think that the people who (1) are completely open minded about which dac to choose, and (2) will consider ALL of them, will lead us to the most useful information when they make their choice. they vote with their pocketbook. that is thee data point.

and if it's the 3x to 4x as expensive Wadax, that speaks loudly as to the differences.

and your view on degrees of difference are not nearly as significant since you are not the one buying.

I have not chosen to buy any DAC. Prior to this survey I had in mind two likely candidates for me personally to buy. I never made any firm decision. I never placed any order. I never wrote a check.

This survey opened my experience to numerous other DACs.

I am not applying any diminishing returns factor whatsoever. I am not applying any value decision analysis overlay for me personally whatsoever. I am simply trying to discern sonic differences between and among these contending components, with price not being a factor.

I think the fact that I am not trying to use this process to arrive at a decision for me personally makes me maximally objective.

I do agree with you that the decision of the person doing the buying may make that decision a more interesting and persuasive data point.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike, I'm honestly not sure what you're talking about. Prior to this survey I had in mind two likely candidates for me personally to buy. I never made any decision.

This survey opened my experience to numerous other DACs.

I am not applying any diminishing returns factor whatsoever. I am not applying any decision analysis overlay for me personally whatsoever. I am simply trying to discern sonic differences between and among these contending components.

I think the fact that I am not trying to use this process to arrive at a decision for me personally makes me maximally objective.

I do agree with you that the decision of the person doing the buying may make that decision a more interesting and persuasive data point.

i see a subset of listeners who are serious Wadax intenders, who are open to actually buy one, as coming to the party open handed.

then i see the others who are not serious Wadax intenders as carrying their baggage of prior opinions and relationships. these can effect their views. especially since the price of the Wadax has the potential to effect their neutrality.

it's just the way it works. always.

none of the Munich Wadax deniers were actually serious Wadax intenders. no problem, but they are more likely to be affected by the price negatively. and it's natural and understandable. "i don't care anyway one way or the other, and at that price it's not as good as my turntable, or i prefer discs, or my dog ate my homework".

so my first question is always; are you seriously considering to buy the Wadax with your own money? then; i pay attention to what they DO. extreme prices do have these effects, especially in a product category with so many alternatives and alliances involved.