Lampizator Horizon360 - Broadening Our Musical Horizons

[Sampajanna]

Im very excited to get mine. Should be coming semi soon!!

 

[Audiohertz2]

I received my Horizon 360 yesterday and offer these early observations. To begin, aside from the graphics and the new line-up of rear panel connectors, the unit really appears indistinguishable from the previous iterations (the original and what has been called “v1” which contains the new XDMI input on the rear panel. (This was available by two pathways; either by updating one’s original or ordering a new Horizon with the XDMI input). In order to assess the new 360, I thought it was reasonable to simply install my current tube set on the new 360 since it would allow an assessment in which the only variable was the new unit itself, and not tubes. (For the record, I run a Cossar 53KU regulator, Mullard ECC2 triodes, and P17c pentodes in mullingmrs copper wire/gold pin adapters. I am connecting the 360 to my Taiko Extreme via USB and an FTA Sinope cable.) Of course, all the caveats about break-in apply (cable terminations and tube socket annealing, capacitor charging, CMS footers re-settling and stabilizing etc.). However, the good news is that the 360, even with very little break-in time, appears to be a superior unit to its predecessor in the most fundamental way. Simply put it is a higher resolution and lower distortion device than the original that it replaces. The obvious full range sonic benefits, particularly musicality, accrue from these advances. Even though bass is often the last thing that “comes in” with cable and gear changes and I am not there yet, what I have heard thus far is impressive and suggests that even better performance awaits as break-in continues. Alternately I might say, if the bass is good now, I can hardly wait to hear this thing after it’s broken in! In short, I doubt that anyone would not be impressed with a 360 no matter how configured, based on what I have heard thus far. Lukasz did his homework and new owners will be justly rewarded by his efforts regardless of the server one uses. The pairing of the 360 with the new XDMI native output-enabled Olympus is yet another highly anticipated event and is almost too much to think about, but promises to be a hell of a ride.

Unfortunately, I am obliged to provide an additional comment about the damping (or lack of) for the top plate (in my case, copper). Frankly, I was very disappointed in the lack of damping for the top plate. Although the chassis appear to be built like a brick you-know-what, if anyone believes the top plate damping is adequate and needs no further discussion, my response is noted here:

Honestly, the top plate rattles like a metal garbage can when finger-tapped. If your unit is on an open shelf or in an open cabinet and you don’t think this matters, we’ll just have to agree to disagree. However, the detrimental effects of the poor top plate damping are almost certainly the most problematic if you play your music at volume. At lower levels, it’s probably a relatively minor issue, or no issue at all. Fortunately, this is a trivial issue and is easily addressed. I certainly haven’t exhausted every damping method that is out there, but this one worked quite well for me using 1000 gm calibration weights and sorbothane discs that are both readily available from Amazon

View attachment 135607. View attachment 135608

Sorbothane discs

https://www.amazon.com/Isolate-Sorbothane-Vibration-Isolation-Circular/dp/B0042U8P9C/ref=sr_1_6?crid=59APIGX4V7W6&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.h905hFiD4CtDomHCCo7-P4oV-Q4gpw3GLSCGGxEMetLb157JTPnVvAGLHLI_EMiY-grcaPAeVzHv98o_qlB3Mf_luE-w6y-eSD72h_u3YWT2y9VcSAp_UJ724fKyP6tNN_5sicwLeQxGLcwPqLbAlOaS-JG5SRnsBgZ09qzKK5Wq2j3iCbAFKMicnj4PpXM7DYf_1WI2pwJw14lDgN0ifA.0jiXZF13B7OhhBI2OVqhIDU_6SkibkpdjRE1iZFkD4A&dib_tag=se&keywords=sorbothane+2.25+disc&qid=1724961327&s=music&sprefix=sorbothane+2.25+disc,popular,128&sr=1-6

Calibration weights:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07HF3LXWQ?ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_fed_asin_title

Agree with your type of low freq dynamic output vibrations can be a problem ..

 

[Steve williams]

Wednesday is always a day I can spend listening to music as my wife visits her mom. I can say with reasonable certainty that XDMI for my ears is truly something special. Today however I wanted to do a different test, one which we will hopefully do when Lukasz and Fred are at my home for a fun weekend with the Horizon 360. As a result I still have my other Horizon waiting in the winds to do for people what I wanted to do today.....to wit compare USB from the Olympus/IO to my previous Horizon and to do the same with USB from the Olympus/IO to my new Horizon 360 . I have kept my heretofor beloved Masterbuilt Ultra USB cable for this very purpose It was a bit of a shlep to get one Horizon off my rack and the other one on so immediate recall was not something possible. The one constant was that I have made no changes in my tube kit. Also Have a list of a dozen or so demo discs that I have used for years to test different aspects of my musical presentation, such as male voice, female voice, guitar, piano, dynamics, timbre etc . I know these tracks in my sleep. I had my next door neighbor present not only to listen but for an extra pair of hands to help with the transfer of DAC's

First test was done with my previous Horizon . I have given a report previously on my thoughts in a separate thread but suffice it to say USB using the Olympus/IO into the previous Horizon was no slouch. It was clearly better than listening to the same DAC via USB from the Extreme. Things sounded cleaner and better using the Olympus and it was immediately noticeable. Plus I was using Roon rather than Taiko XDMS (which I really miss) and for the first time in a very long time, Roon was actually enjoyable.

After about a half hour taken to do the DAC switch from the floor to the shelf with the 360 now in action , turn it on and let it warm up and begin listening to the same tracks via Roon, I have to admit that had I never heard XDMI, this was a sound that I could easily live with. @John T summed it up as perfectly as I could . The sound was big, dynamic, nuanced with better timbre. I found pretty much the same with the addition that the sound stage as big as it seemed was not exaggerated in any way. In fact there was better clarity and tightness . Timbre was spot on and dynamics were magnificent. This also was a sound that I could easily live with. Simply put the Horizon 360 has done something to make a good thing better. I have no idea whether it is related to the new chip, the design and construction of the 360 but for those who will use USB with or without the Olympus, they are in for a real treat using the 360 connectrted to their server via USB. I could easily end the story there as if you never hear XDMI your system would shine.


At the the end of our session we changed cables from a $15K Masterbuilt Ultra USB which excelled to a $4K KBL XDMI cable. It's difficult to put into words what I hear with XDMI for thsake of being accused of hyperbole. AsI have said before, "you cant unring a bell" Once heard it becomes impossible for me at least to go back to that truly great sound we heard with the 360 and USB

XDMI is in a league of its own. It doesn't sound digital and it doesnt sound vinyl but somewhere very close. The sound is truly special. So for those who want to experience this I suggest coming to the open house on Nov 2-3 with Lukasz and Fred and UIm still hoping for Emile. Kindly message me hear at WBF so I can give directions to my house and get you on the gate list. Im actually surprised that so far there are more out of owners than locals who have plans to attend. Looking forward to meet everyone at the event.

 

[tommytwotimes44]

@steve williams - those are with Your speakers Steve.
With horns and 100dB sensitivity which were voiced with 300b tubes those kinds of amps are optimal vs SS.

I'm not sure i want an amp to be 'voiced', regardless of speakers. To me an amp should amplify and nothing else. If i want flavour i can do that with a preamp or dac. i would like to understand more why you feel that the best amp for the Tobians is a tube amp? Although i am now looking at the nagra 300 as a possibility which seems to be pretty special.

 

[Golum]

I'm not sure i want an amp to be 'voiced', regardless of speakers. To me an amp should amplify and nothing else. If i want flavour i can do that with a preamp or dac. i would like to understand more why you feel that the best amp for the Tobians is a tube amp? Although i am now looking at the nagra 300 as a possibility which seems to be pretty special.

I won't "spam" a topic related to the H360 with amp/speaker topic so i will send you PM

 

[John T]

Something I neglected to include with my previous observations/comments regarding the 360; Due to its robust nature, one may find attenuating the volume back a little may be more conducive. As previously noted the dynamics are huge. I never had to do this with the H1 iterations so I have adjusted accordingly. The input sensitivity may or may not be affected.
You may have to experiment a bit. Keep it at 63 and attenuate only with the linestage/preamplifier. Then try dialing the 360 back and see what you prefer. This may take a little time to find the "sweet spot" that you prefer...

 

[simorag]

Hi just received my H1 upgraded to H360 and, at the same time, a set of 100dB efficient speakers which I am driving with my Riviera Labs AIC-10 10W integrated amp.



If I use the H360 at VC=63 I have very little usable knob in my integrated, especially with albums recorded at high volume level. So I will need to find a balance between the volume control of my amp and the Horizon for these cases.

However, when following the original Horizon thread, I have read several mentions about a potential loss of sound quality whenever the volume is set below 63 (which allegedly by-passes the internal volume control). In one post, it has even been mentioned that "the horizon vc is supplied by a cheap smps".

If the above is true that would mean that the use of the Horizon as a preamp is a pretty bad idea. Am I missing something?

 

[Golum]

Apparently, the output level on H360 is quite "hotter" than on the H1 hence you observe what you wrote. In my experience I never noted any diff if I used H on the levels below 63 - tbh I use it as a volume control as my DHT pre does not have a remote and I'm lazy to do it manually each single time.
But this anyhow you can check on your own. Set the level on Levante on desired level and play with the output on the H360.

 

[John T]

Apparently, the output level on H360 is quite "hotter" than on the H1 hence you observe what you wrote. In my experience I never noted any diff if I used H on the levels below 63 - tbh I use it as a volume control as my DHT pre does not have a remote and I'm lazy to do it manually each single time.
But this anyhow you can check on your own. Set the level on Levante on desired level and play with the output on the H360.

He can try it both ways, I might set the (360) 50-55 then see what the integrated does...

 

[Steve williams]

Something I neglected to include with my previous observations/comments regarding the 360; Due to its robust nature, one may find attenuating the volume back a little may be more conducive. As previously noted the dynamics are huge. I never had to do this with the H1 iterations so I have adjusted accordingly. The input sensitivity may or may not be affected.
You may have to experiment a bit. Keep it at 63 and attenuate only with the linestage/preamplifier. Then try dialing the 360 back and see what you prefer. This may take a little time to find the "sweet spot" that you prefer...

I totally agree that the dynamics are huge such that I too found myself having to dial back the gain on my preamp. Im one of those guys who prefer the Horizon gain at 63 as that passes the full signal and then I control what @John T discusses. with my preamp. Since I received the original Horizon the gain on. my Lamm preamp has typically been at the 5th lowest detente position. Since receiving the H360 I found myself immediately down to the 4th lowest and after two weeks of settle in I am now at the 3rd lowest detente position on my preamp. I did try keep the preamp gain at 4-5 and dialing back on the H360 to 57-58 but to my ears I was missing some of the energy that came with leaving it at 63 so thats where I am again. My understanding is this perceived increase in dynamics is actually greater with H360 users listening via USB rather than via XDMI. I also understand that the Olympus using XDMI takes care of some of the processing which is otherwise done by the DAC. As it was explained to me, the H360 haas 3 stages and if the user is listening via USB all 3 of these stages are used in the Horizon hence the very large jump in dynamics. If however the user is listening via XDMI, those first. 2 stages are handled internally by the Olympus and only the 3rd stage in the Horizon is what gives the perceived increase in gain to XDMI users. IOW @John T your jump up might be even greater than what I am hearing

 

[John T]

I totally agree that the dynamics are huge such that I too found myself having to dial back the gain on my preamp. Im one of those guys who prefer the Horizon gain at 63 as that passes the full signal and then I control what @John T discusses. with my preamp. Since I received the original Horizon the gain on. my Lamm preamp has typically been at the 5th lowest detente position. Since receiving the H360 I found myself immediately down to the 4th lowest and after two weeks of settle in I am mnow at the 3rd lowest detente position on my preamp. I did try keep the preamp gain at 4-5 and dialing back on the H360 to 56-57 but to my ears I was missing some of the energy that came with leaving it at 63 so thats where I am again. My understanding is this perceived increase in dynamics is actually greater with H360 users listening via USB rather than via XDMI. I also understand that the Olympus using XDMI takes care of some of the processing which is otherwise done by the DAC. As it was explained to me, the H360 haas 3 stages and if the user is listening via USB all 3 of these stages are used in the Horizon hence the very large jump in dynamics. If however the user is listening via XDMI, those first. 2 stages are handled internally by the Olympus and only the 3rd stage in the Horizon is what gives the perceived increase in gain to XDMI users. IOW @John T your jump up might be even greater than what I am hearing

This is very helpful and informative...

 

[Steve williams]

There is no questiin that dialing the H360 back to 57-58 might be more pleasing to the ear and I still might find myself there as the listening sessions increase but for now at 63 on the H360 and the 3rd lowest detente position on my preamp there just seems to be more realism towhead I am hearing. The first time I listened via USB I found I had to turn down the H360 to 57-58 as my ears were bleeding.

 

[Steve williams]

to put things in perspective and to find what best to do I find the single best demo file to play to get that sense of presence without feeling overpowered is Sound of Silence by The Ghost of Johnny Cash. Using USB I had to turn the gain to 57-58 and my preamp to 3rd lowest level. With XDMI I am still at 3rd lowest position but at 63 what I hear is him in the room with me. It was scary good. Today , I am going to lower my pre to 2nd position and keep it at 63 but for those with the 360 I suggest using this track to dial in your comfort zone

 

[Thundersnow]

Barely using your pre to go into power amps will negatively impact the dynamics. The gain structure between the source, pre and power amps is off in that case. I would always look to bypass the volume attenuation on the Horizon (sticking with 63), but in that case it’s worth looking into the gain options for the pre.

 

[Lukasz "Lampizator" Fikus]

The VC of horizon is of highest possible precision, neutrality and quality. No worries.

 

[Golum]

Check your tech sheet and output levels SE/Bal on H1 vs H (XDMI) vs H360 snd some things will become obvious
Next - plug in the high gain tube like c3gS and see what happens then…
BTW - more gain from H happier my pre is - beauty of the single stage low gain DHT pre…

 

[Steve williams]

Barely using your pre to go into power amps will negatively impact the dynamics. The gain structure between the source, pre and power amps is off in that case. I would always look to bypass the volume attenuation on the Horizon (sticking with 63), but in that case it’s worth looking into the gain options for the pre.

good advice as from what I recall Lamm used to say you had to be at least at level 4 on his preamp and this is why I am thinking of cutting back on the H360 to 58 so I can be back at 4-5 on my preamp. At the moment the dynamics Im hearing are far from negatively impacted at this low level. I do find that at level 4 on my preamp the sound to my ears is much better but as stated I prefer to run the Horizon at 63. Ill listen again today with XDMI and dial back to 58

 

[Steve williams]

FWIW I have turned the gain down to 2 and H at 63 and it just doesn’t work for me. CinfurmsxwgstvRhundersnow stated. I’m still at 63 and now playing with Horizon to find a sweet spot between ?-63 with my preamp set at either the 4tth or 5th detente position.

If Lukasz is reading this can you comment what the change in gain is on the H:60 with each change step up My preamp has a change in gain of 0.3 db with each increase in detente positions I’m curious to know what it is in the Horizon for the sake of trying to match on my preamp what I’m giving up on the Horizon by dropping below 63

 

[Steve williams]

The other obvious between me and most readers is that I run my Horizon SE not balanced as Lamm is SE. I Think this is why I am able to play at 63 without issues with my preamp set at 4 where the preamp kicks in

 

[John T]

Sometimes its hard to break old habits. A light bulb finally went off thanks to Goran @Golum. I've always run Balanced with the H. Sounded great from jump street and that's how I ran it for two years. Considering the Higher Balanced Output Signal for the very first time I switched to Single Ended. Boom! No issues whatsoever keeping the 360 at 63 and using the Linestage as I always have. Pretty stupid on my part to keep playing around with things and not doing this sooner. Too early to tell if I have a preference. At 58 and running Balanced it also sounded excellent. Blindfolded, someone switching between the two, I'm not sure I could decipher...