Lampizator Horizon360 - Broadening Our Musical Horizons

Change the pre to the one which can handle high gain output source:p
Question to be asked - why this change has been made as such as H1 had a standard output V…as even GGs and Pac with 242 tubes were not this hot to my knowledge..
 
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Ive done both. To my ears XDMI is a little less than USB. IOW I think the uptick in dynamics with USB is greater than that with XDMI which is still very dynamic

Trying to understand…

Are you saying USB is louder than XDMI? I recall saying XDMI added 3 dB.

Also, are you saying USB has greater dynamics than XDMI.
 
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I think the uptick with the 360 seems greater with USB vs XDMI . @John T I thought summed it up perfectly wrt USB in his post last week. The uptick seems to be huge. As I understand it and please correct me if Im wrong, but USB into the H360 uses all 3 stages whereas using XDMI much of whatever happens occurs inn the Olympus such that only the 3rd stage is used in the Horizon. Im sure Lukasz and Emile will provide far better explanations than I ever could at the weekend event at my house. Having said that to my ears the uptick with XDMI into the 360 is also huge
 
I think the uptick with the 360 seems greater with USB vs XDMI . @John T I thought summed it up perfectly wrt USB in his post last week. The uptick seems to be huge. As I understand it and please correct me if Im wrong, but USB into the H360 uses all 3 stages whereas using XDMI much of whatever happens occurs inn the Olympus such that only the 3rd stage is used in the Horizon. Im sure Lukasz and Emile will provide far better explanations than I ever could at the weekend event at my house. Having said that to my ears the uptick with XDMI into the 360 is also huge
I should also qualify that my impressions are based on using my H360 SE and not balanced so Im betting @John T who runs balanced with USB is noticing a huge uptick Its difficult to put into precise words but yes XDMI has huge dynamics.
 
I should also qualify that my impressions are based on using my H360 SE and not balanced so Im betting @John T who runs balanced with USB is noticing a huge uptick Its difficult to put into precise words but yes XDMI has huge dynamics.
Yes Single Ended is more "in control" with less db. Even with these lesser RCA's I'm using its totally different from running Balanced. I'm hoping when I get my re-terminated Cardas back things will go back to my normal...
 
Yes Single Ended is more "in control" with less db. Even with these lesser RCA's I'm using its totally different from running Balanced. I'm hoping when I get my re-terminated Cardas back things will go back to my normal...
Off topic, but I was under the impression Cardas XLR cannot be reterminated to RCA.
 
Off topic, but I was under the impression Cardas XLR cannot be reterminated to RCA.
I spoke with Brian at Cardas Yesterday. Go on their website, re-termination can be provided in a number of applications...
 
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I think the uptick with the 360 seems greater with USB vs XDMI . @John T I thought summed it up perfectly wrt USB in his post last week. The uptick seems to be huge. As I understand it and please correct me if Im wrong, but USB into the H360 uses all 3 stages whereas using XDMI much of whatever happens occurs inn the Olympus such that only the 3rd stage is used in the Horizon. Im sure Lukasz and Emile will provide far better explanations than I ever could at the weekend event at my house. Having said that to my ears the uptick with XDMI into the 360 is also huge
So, with the H1, the native Xdmi was much better sounding than usb?

But, with the higher voltage output of the H360, your usb is sounding better than native Xdmi?

Do you think the H360/usb is better sounding than the H1/xdmi?

This is an interesting puzzle to me as I’m still trying to figure out my preference between Olympus /Taiko dac/xdmi and
Olympus/ Ithaca dac/usb
 
Interesting discussion about the H/H360 setting at 63 vs a lower setting. There are several aspects to discuss here. But one piece of information I’d like to know is simply – what is the S/N spec is for the H360? It's important but I can't seem to find it anywhere.

The general rule is that ideally, one typically runs the highest gain in the device with the highest S/N ratio. In the case of the H360 this is somewhat confounded by the S/N in the tubes, which typically do not have S/N much greater (and often less) than 90dB. My preamp, the Soulution 727 has a S/N of 120dB. Therefore, ideally, most of my gain should come from the 727 and not the H. But unfortunately, things become complicated because of the sonic liability when you use the volume control of the H /H360 at anything below 63. IMO, the inclusion of the H preamp section unfortunately confers a slight but noticeable sonic hindrance when the VC is set lower than 63. However, if you're bypassing the VC by running at 63, then you are left with only 1 option, which is to use your preamp to provide the necessary and adjustable gain you need. In that case, even though your preamp is quieter, it may not be providing as much gain as the H set on 63. (Even though I don’t know the S/N of the H360, I’m assuming the 727 with a S/N of 120dB is certainly quieter than the H360). In other words, by running the H at 63, I am creating a suboptimal paradox whereby the most gain is not coming from the device with the highest S/N specification.

Furthermore, if you're running a H set at 63 into a preamp such that the volume control needs to be barely moved to get full volume, that could be another problem and one that does not have an easy answer. Either run the H at less than 63 (and take a sonic hit), or, as has been suggested, figure out how to attenuate the gain of your preamp so that the VC provides a greater range of adjustability when the H is set to 63.

The other issue that seems to be part of the discussion is the old “single ended vs balanced” interconnect issue since the lowered gain of single ended components might be helpful when running the H/H360 into one’s preamp. I use single ended inputs into my preamp from the H360 and from my Zanden 1200 MkIV phono but use balanced outputs of the 727 preamp because my interconnects are 25 ft. FWIW its worth, having been down this road before, I defer to Keith Johnson at Spectral. Keith Johnson, as good as recording engineer as God ever created, said that you have to remember that a balanced signal uses 2 discrete amplification paths for each leg of the balanced signal, so there are always infintesimal differences in transistor responses between the 2 legs that occur. Hence what comes out isn't necessarily what goes in. Even if the transistors are matched as well as possible, these differences are simply not an issue with single ended amplification. One way to reduce or resolve these disparities is to match the transistors with exquisite precision as Dan D'Agostino does in his Relentless Epic 1600 monoblocs. "The unique input stage achieves extraordinarily low noise and distortion by assuring that the positive and negative halves of the signal are perfect opposites of each other, even if the incoming signal is not perfectly balanced". The labor involved in matching those transistors so precisely contributes greatly as to why the amps cost 350K per pair!

In a nutshell, unless you have long cable runs, as say from mics to the mixing board in a recording studio, or from pre-amp to amp, there is pragmatically no advantage to balanced cables and in fact, there can be a sonic hindrance compared to single ended. However, with long cable runs, the lower noise due to common mode rejection of balanced cable might be advantageous. If that's a good enough rule of thumb for Keith Johnson, that's good enough for me. Bottom line, this is one of the forever popular "how many angels can fit on the head of a pin" issues that audiophiles waste a lot of unnecessary time on as the differences seem negligible at best unless long cable runs are involved. It therefore seems reasonable to do whatever works best for you but don't over-think it.
 
@marty I agree with your comments. In your world, what is “long” with respect to cable runs after which one should consider balanced? Over 10ft? More?
 
The problem with some people is that what works best doesnt sound best. As for SE vs Balanced I totally agree. I use SE from H360 and with my Lamm preamp I have no problems whatsoever. I run the H360 at 63 in to my preamp via SE which BTW also save me a lot of money as the power tubes (pentodes) can become very expensive in todays market. I think people should rethink running their H360 balanced an consider a SE output to your preamp. I think this is what @John T has been finding
 
So, with the H1, the native Xdmi was much better sounding than usb?

But, with the higher voltage output of the H360, your usb is sounding better than native Xdmi?

Do you think the H360/usb is better sounding than the H1/xdmi?

This is an interesting puzzle to me as I’m still trying to figure out my preference between Olympus /Taiko dac/xdmi and
Olympus/ Ithaca dac/usb
I never said that at all. I use XDMI only and have zero desire to go back to USB. Once you hear XDMI it is difficult to revert back to USB.I also commented that the type of XDMI cable also makes a big difference. I have used both versions of the KBL XDMI cable and IMO spending the extra $1000 for their better cable was a worthwhile investment
 
The problem with some people is that what works best doesnt sound best. As for SE vs Balanced I totally agree. I use SE from H360 and with my Lamm preamp I have no problems whatsoever. I run the H360 at 63 in to my preamp via SE which BTW also save me a lot of money as the power tubes (pentodes) can become very expensive in todays market. I think people should rethink running their H360 balanced an consider a SE output to your preamp. I think this is what @John T has been finding
TBH at this point I'm fine with Single Ended as long as it brings me back to more familiar Sonic Territory. I'm just attempting to get where I was with the H1 along with the added transparency the 360 brings. That's all I want. My H1 was perfectly voiced. You listen to something for 2 years, one becomes very familiar with that sound profile...Cardas has put a rush on my re-termination so I'm hoping everything works out...
 
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I have mentioned before in this thread that at the open house at my home Nov 2-3 we will do a comparison between XDMI with a $4000 cable and USB with a $15K cable

I have had many new RSVP's over the past few days and if members are interested, contact me here via PM
 
Just want to share my own experience with H1 - limited to my own system and ears (also limited by my lack of sustained interest in keeping toying with equipment because I am too busy with music): (1) when the recording quality is optimal, H1 bypass (at 63) sounds the best (but honestly 59-62, roughly, does not sound audibly worse than 63); (2) when the recording is subpar (which is mostly the case with classical music recordings, especially large orchestral and choral pieces recordings) lowering of H1's VC (somewhat between 45-55) and increasing the volume of my integrated amp (Humboldt) sometimes yields a bit (but not much) of improvement if the high notes are too bright or edgy (bad recording should sound bad when transparently reproduced by one's system); and (3) lowering VC below 40 roughly results in an audible lumpiness of bass. This had much to do with the kind of tubes (especially signal tubes) used for H1: the huge volume gain (coupled with huge transparency gain) from ECC32 (noticeably veiled or warm with the Mullard house sound signature) to WE437A has made H1's VC's bypass less important to me. Also the unique cables I use, optimized for the direction of absolute phase, with the least skin and dielectric effects, was a game-changing experience because they hugely reduce jitters (understood in a broad sense including smearing from being veiled by skin and dielectric effects). Finally, in respect of SE vs. Balanced, I subscribe to the school which believes that SE is intrinsically more musical for home use than Balanced (which is used out of necessity by recording studios for running very long cables to reduce noise). (I tried Balanced with my prior system; the 3db gain was initially impressive, but overtime I found balanced sounding somewhat fatiguing, perhaps resulting from the mismatch mentioned by @marty above.) But there is no universal truth; sound engineers and experts differ in their beliefs. Each to his own, limited by his system and ears. No right and wrong obviously, and it would be pointless to debate.
 
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@marty I agree with your comments. In your world, what is “long” with respect to cable runs after which one should consider balanced? Over 10ft? More?
David, I don't know the answer to that as the output impedance of the preamp is a big contributor to the equation. It's not necessarily just the cable length that matters, but whether the preamp can drive the amps at any given cable length without degrading bass performance. 10 ft doesn't seem particularly onerous for a low output impedance pre-amp but again, it all depends on the pre-amp. When recordings are made in concert halls, 50 and 100 ft lengths of microphone cables are commonly used, which is why balanced cables are typically used. I recall many years ago I was using an ARC preamp to drive my 25 ft interconnects and it was a bad fit, but when I changed to the low output VTL 7.5 preamp, things came together nicely. Hope that helps.
 
I was thinking more about Horizon to preamp but I understand your explanation.

I run balanced from my Doshi preamp to my Vandersteen mono blocks because the amps only accept balanced. The run is 25ft so balanced seem to be the right option.
 
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@marty I agree with your comments. In your world, what is “long” with respect to cable runs after which one should consider balanced? Over 10ft? More?
The cable manufacturer who supplied my unique-in-the-world cables and whose opinions I share about cables, power treatment and sound treatment (but not necessarily upstream components) told me based on his nearly 3 decades of experiment that ICs should be ideally limited to 2M (to avoid noticeable SQ degradation), but speaker cables sound best at about 2.45M (8') (not shorter runs, contrary to intuition, and the SQ does not degrade that much with longer runs (could be 8M for instance). It is about current (small current has more audible degradation over length). His topline ICs use 200 microinch (0.00508 mm) ribbons and topline speaker cables 500 microinch (0.0127 mm) ribbons, each virtually naked (protected by a very loose-fitting mesh, which also serves as FR protection) which are unusually and hugely directional, in terms of the direction of absolute phase (his power cables have 2 versions, which are otherwise identical, with the opposite absolute phase directions - e.g. H1 sounds best and correct with 300W "Blue" PC, but Extreme sounds best and correct with 100W "Red" PC; "Red" and "Blue" are opposite in phase direction; usually the thinner the better for SQ provided that thinness can easily handle the average power consumption of the component; H1 about 110-120W in power consumption, Extreme about 90W, all based on my measurements; the SQ difference is very obvious).
 
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Interesting discussion about the H/H360 setting at 63 vs a lower setting. There are several aspects to discuss here. But one piece of information I’d like to know is simply – what is the S/N spec is for the H360? It's important but I can't seem to find it anywhere.

The general rule is that ideally, one typically runs the highest gain in the device with the highest S/N ratio. In the case of the H360 this is somewhat confounded by the S/N in the tubes, which typically do not have S/N much greater (and often less) than 90dB. My preamp, the Soulution 727 has a S/N of 120dB. Therefore, ideally, most of my gain should come from the 727 and not the H. But unfortunately, things become complicated because of the sonic liability when you use the volume control of the H /H360 at anything below 63. IMO, the inclusion of the H preamp section unfortunately confers a slight but noticeable sonic hindrance when the VC is set lower than 63. However, if you're bypassing the VC by running at 63, then you are left with only 1 option, which is to use your preamp to provide the necessary and adjustable gain you need. In that case, even though your preamp is quieter, it may not be providing as much gain as the H set on 63. (Even though I don’t know the S/N of the H360, I’m assuming the 727 with a S/N of 120dB is certainly quieter than the H360). In other words, by running the H at 63, I am creating a suboptimal paradox whereby the most gain is not coming from the device with the highest S/N specification.

Furthermore, if you're running a H set at 63 into a preamp such that the volume control needs to be barely moved to get full volume, that could be another problem and one that does not have an easy answer. Either run the H at less than 63 (and take a sonic hit), or, as has been suggested, figure out how to attenuate the gain of your preamp so that the VC provides a greater range of adjustability when the H is set to 63.

The other issue that seems to be part of the discussion is the old “single ended vs balanced” interconnect issue since the lowered gain of single ended components might be helpful when running the H/H360 into one’s preamp. I use single ended inputs into my preamp from the H360 and from my Zanden 1200 MkIV phono but use balanced outputs of the 727 preamp because my interconnects are 25 ft. FWIW its worth, having been down this road before, I defer to Keith Johnson at Spectral. Keith Johnson, as good as recording engineer as God ever created, said that you have to remember that a balanced signal uses 2 discrete amplification paths for each leg of the balanced signal, so there are always infintesimal differences in transistor responses between the 2 legs that occur. Hence what comes out isn't necessarily what goes in. Even if the transistors are matched as well as possible, these differences are simply not an issue with single ended amplification. One way to reduce or resolve these disparities is to match the transistors with exquisite precision as Dan D'Agostino does in his Relentless Epic 1600 monoblocs. "The unique input stage achieves extraordinarily low noise and distortion by assuring that the positive and negative halves of the signal are perfect opposites of each other, even if the incoming signal is not perfectly balanced". The labor involved in matching those transistors so precisely contributes greatly as to why the amps cost 350K per pair!

In a nutshell, unless you have long cable runs, as say from mics to the mixing board in a recording studio, or from pre-amp to amp, there is pragmatically no advantage to balanced cables and in fact, there can be a sonic hindrance compared to single ended. However, with long cable runs, the lower noise due to common mode rejection of balanced cable might be advantageous. If that's a good enough rule of thumb for Keith Johnson, that's good enough for me. Bottom line, this is one of the forever popular "how many angels can fit on the head of a pin" issues that audiophiles waste a lot of unnecessary time on as the differences seem negligible at best unless long cable runs are involved. It therefore seems reasonable to do whatever works best for you but don't over-think it.
My general view is that audiophiles spend time thinking about things like S/N ratios in electronics when they largely don't matter. Let me explain this a bit more clearly, but I have stated my views on WBF in other threads. What limits S/N ratio in every WBF system is not the preamp or the DAC or or cables or even the amplifier. It is the speakers and the room. You are lucky if you have a speaker that can squeak out a 60 dB S/N ratio. Most cannot. What's that you say? Well, if you look at distortion spectra of almost any speaker, in the bass region, even a million dollar speaker can barely accomplish 50 dB S/N. Check out the measurements of hundreds of speakers online (e.g, Armin's audiosciencereview, or other places). Speakers are doing really well if they can manage 70 dB S/N ratios within a narrow bandwidth, but not at the frequency extremes, and certainly not above 90 dB sound level. Horns also can manage this within a narrow band in the midrange. The best dynamic speakers can approach this, but most fail well before they get to the mid bass region.

In digital terms, no speaker exists on the planet that can resolve 16-bit rebook CD standard. To achieve that, you need 96 dB S/N ratios at 20 Hz or 20 Khz. Such a speaker has never been made. There's plenty of reasons to think that such a speaker can never be made, since the laws of physics would probably be violated.

A speaker that achieves 120 dB S/N ratio is likely to be mathematically impossible. You'd have to get distortion down to 0.00001% or something in that neighborhood. Material properties don't allow this. No amplifier I know can achieve 120 dB S/N ratio. Even the best DACs struggle to achieve this. They can resolve 20 bits, but usually their preamp section (or op amps or tubes) will limit S/N ratio to around 90 dB. Again, check out audiosciencereview for measurements of hundreds of DACs. They don't achieve this figure.

Then, there's the room. This is usually where the bulk of distortion lies in most WBF systems. A classic demo by Professor Amar Gopal Bose of MIT (the guy who founded Bose Corporation) in his legendary class on Acoustics showed that if you record the output of a loudspeaker playing a piece of music in a room (e.g., a Mozart piano sonata or heavy metal), and then play that recording on the same speaker again, and record that output, and so on, within 5-6 iterations, you cannot tell what the original music was. You get pure noise! What's going on here is that the speaker+room distort so badly that 5-6 times around this loop, the S/N ratio is essentially 0! There is no signal left.

Now, compare the same experiment with the Soulution DAC or the Horizon DAC. Let's say you hook up 5-6 Horizon or Soulution DACs, daisy-chained and take care with the volume settings not to overload each one -- this can be easily done -- I guarantee you that blind folded, you will not be able to easily tell if you are listening to just one preamp or DAC, or 6. This experiment has been done many times with power amplifiers. What this tells you is that the overriding cause of distortion is not DACs or preamps or power amps or CD players or cables. It's your speakers and your room.

In general, investing in high quality loudspeakers that interact with the room as little as possible is my preferred way to achieve high fidelity. In general, that means for me, using electrostatic loudspeakers, but it could be done in other ways, such as DSP etc.
 
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I totally agree with this. In fact yesterday I did the very same and it is so easy for me to hear the difference between 63 and 62. I had my wife change randomly back and forth and it was easy to always discern

Fortunately I am able to use full signal 63 into my preamp and maintain the life of what I hear with my preamp set at its usual position

Are you using USB or XDMI or ??
At the moment USB from my Taiko Extreme. I’m in the waiting list for Olympus XDMi, but way high #116. So I don’t expect it to come before next year.

One workaround for the high gain is to set in Roon the headroom management to -13db or something similar. This will of course mean dsp is now applied (no more bit perfect), but to me it still sounds better than H360 on volume below 63.

I have yet to test SE, but from my perspective equipment of this caliber should not force users to switch interconnects.
 
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