I understand but I have no desire to use DSP Plus I’ve always used SE in my system as that’s tgecLamm way. And I’m still at 63. Life is good. Like you I found that even only at 62 I immediately lost some pizzazz I’m a happy camper with XDMI
Lampizator Horizon360 - Broadening Our Musical Horizons
- Thread starter Steve williams
- Start date
well that sounds completely ridiculous to me and not something i would expect with a €60k piece of kit
Incredibly helpful. Thank you for taking the time to articulate. Will sleep well!!
I personally like @Moladiego do not hear any difference between 63 and 59 in my system. I pretty much live at 59 out to my preamp. Was also very happy running the Horizon direct to amps with volumes set on the horizon at 20-33.
Count me in - no diff at all 63, 57 45,….i rather keep H lower and open up the volume pot on the pre…
Addendum (repeating what I wrote earlier): for albums that sound too bright or edgy, lowering H's VC and boosting separate preamp's VC does reduce the glare a bit (but will not completely resolve the issue because best components should be super transparent and not color sound (garbage in garbage out, as the saying goes). It may be system-specific though and my findings may change if I use, e.g., Areas Cerat preamp and amps in the future.
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Thank you Lukasz. This is very helpful and I hope the XDMI input will really solve my problem.
I've tested now the SE setup and I can confirm it does generate 6db lower volume. But it does not help with clipping on my preamp with full volume. Interestingly both SE and balanced require at minimum the same -6db attenuation in Roon headroom management to avoid any clipping artefacts.
So if XDMI is 6db or more below the USB level, I think it will be fine. I will be patiently awaiting my Olympus.
One really nice track you can use to check for clipping due to high voltage of H360 is Il silenzio from Melissa Venema (album: From The Heart).
There is a very simple explanation why 62 and 63 have quite a big difference in some systems. For volumes 0-62 the H360 preamp is engaged. At volume 63 it is in full pass-through mode.
I love the Lampi products and I think Lucasz has brought some fantastic innovation over the years, but I just can’t get behind the latest design decisions. The video didn’t help at all in that regard. I’ll respectfully bow out from the discussion as I have nothing to add beyond this, but I did feel I had to say this nonetheless.
I am curious about whether at 63 H's preamp circuit rather than VC is bypassed. I am thinking of my Audionet Humboldt integrated amp (trickledown product, retaining the sound signature, of flagship Stern preamp and Heissenberg monos). It has an VC bypass mode (for home theater use for example) and I did get VC bypassed and use H1's VC, but the SQ was obviously subpar (mind you, NO implication that H1's preamp is subpar; read on and see the "double circuitry" interaction issue below). Upon inquiry, the dealer informed that only Humboldt's VC can be bypassed but not its preamp circuit. I am unable to evaluate H1's VC vs. Humboldt's VC (some users reported that they were so happy with H1's VC that they sold their $40K Stern's) which I could otherwise do if I had separate preamp and amp and I may well end up preferring H's VC (but only my ears can tell; specifications like S/N ratio are useless; I used Mola Mola products before; they had perfect S/Ns, but they were not outstanding for their prices). If H's preamp circuit cannot be bypassed even at 63, perhaps it explains why there is no material difference to some people (including me, each limited to their ears and systems) between 63 and a range of 55 to 62 (roughly). I did use H1's preamp with my prior system, which was clearly better than any other preamps I had used (but I had not used a preamp north of $30K) in tandem with a pair of $16K tube monoblocks in my prior system. My current system has seen a tremendous jump in SQ and transparency resulting largely from the use of a pair of dipole and field coil speakers, Humboldt and the choice tubes in place of the stock tubes for H1. (I may move on to other amps or preamps, but not as a priority for now.)
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I'll add my 2 cents; When I first shared my listening observations with the 360 I was using Balanced. I've have had 3 Horizons and I always used Balanced, that's what I became accustomed to. Upon receiving the 360 I assumed I would take the same path. The issue I found using Balanced was, it can sound off the charts GREAT for several tracks and then its too much gain a few tracks later. Then I would have to readjust VC. Sometimes both the pre and 360. My system, my listening habits, it didn't work for me. Sure, we all bump the volume up or down but not as often as I was doing. I just couldn't seem to get it right for my ears, I wasn't experiencing clipping, it didn't work for me.
I switched to Single Ended, (first time in 2 years) I only had some not so good RCA on hand but even those showed me something. Today a friend sent me some very good RCA and wow. Everything is stable and sounds fantastic. I kept the Horizon at 63, never thought about changing it in 2 years. I'm now back in more familiar sonic territory. 360 is at 63, my Linestage is back at typical listening levels and I am only attenuating with my Linestage. I think everyone should set their VC on the 360 or Horizon to what they think sounds the best for them...
I switched to Single Ended, (first time in 2 years) I only had some not so good RCA on hand but even those showed me something. Today a friend sent me some very good RCA and wow. Everything is stable and sounds fantastic. I kept the Horizon at 63, never thought about changing it in 2 years. I'm now back in more familiar sonic territory. 360 is at 63, my Linestage is back at typical listening levels and I am only attenuating with my Linestage. I think everyone should set their VC on the 360 or Horizon to what they think sounds the best for them...
What I have seen is that many users assume without questioning that Balanced is intrinsically better than SE, similar to an unquestioned assumption that Hi-Res files sound intrinsically better than Bed Book files. Such assumptions are debatable because even the so-called experts hold the opposite views. At the end of the day, what sounds better is often in the ears of the listener since we only have human, but not God's, ears and human ears vary hugely, what sounds warm to one may sound mushy to another, what sounds transparent or linear to one may sound edgy to another. To my ears, based on my limited experiments (but comforted by the reports based on extensive experiments by some audio manufacturers or seasoned experimenters whose beliefs I share from my own experience), SE is intrinsically more musical (not having sound volume in mind) than Balanced and there is no intrinsic superiority of SQ to Hi-Res files (I made my observations elsewhere in the Olympus thread with concrete examples). A matter of belief valid for myself, needless to say.
An output voltage of >9v at volume control bypass (balanced) may provide the optimal sound quality for Lampizator, but this is a stupendously high output voltage for most systems. 9v is 4-5x higher than most amplifiers need for full output! I use an EM/IA passive autoformer preamp (my preference over resistive volume controls which reduce dynamics) and I don't know if it can modulate the signal sufficiently to allow reasonable volume control for my 100db sensitive speakers. Since I can't afford the Horizon anyway, its a moot point for me, but the mandatory use of a resistor ladder volume control would be a nonstarter for my system.
Did the video say what the single-ended output voltage is, by the way?
Did the video say what the single-ended output voltage is, by the way?
I think he said 4V...Or I heard 4V from someone...
I really believe it is system dependent as I can hear a difference easily between 63-62. According to Lukasz IIRC each step on the VC is ).5 DB difference . Are you saying you cant hear a change in volume of 0.5 db? Lamm has never been an advocate for Balanced. When I bought the Signature series I was concerned that distance from preamp to amp was 9 meters. I questioned him ad nauseam as to whether I would have drop in SQ etc. He boldly told me to use my SE cables and if there was any issue he would refund my money for all pieces which was ~$225,000.
Lamm uses pseudobalanced where he has XLR ports but pin 2 IIRC is shorted to effectively make an SE cable . I have had the gear now for about 14 years and I have never had an issue with SE even using a 9 meter cable. From Horizon to preamp I use a 1.5 meter cable which is true SE.
As people have said, don't underestimate SE
I don’t think people are saying they don’t hear a volume difference. They are saying they don’t hear a differece in fidelity.
0.5 db change is the same with SE or balanced is it not. Are you saying you cannot hear a 0.5 Db change in volume. My Lamm preamp has a 0.3 db change with each detente position and I can hear the difference easily with that change . Again I think it is system dependent as that seems to be why some hear no change and others easily hear change
i think is is oil in the fire.. i actually run my horizon albeit the old one at 32-48 volume level wise , preferring instead to crank up the vc on my thomas mayer - that seems to work quite well for me .
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