Leading Edge/Percussive Bass: Subwoofer Setup: Reference Tracks etc.

[marty]

On the first track, Issac Freeman has a highlighted solo from 3:12 to the end of the song. He appears on the left only said which I find to be very helpful.
On the second track, the incomparable Issac (died in 2012, age 84) was replaced by Joe Thompson (whose day job is a school bus driver) who is on the right channel (but with less solo duties). Still useful.
The 3rd track is a wonderful and humorous bass track with issac as the solo artist at age 73, although he has aged vocally compared to his prime. As the featured artist, he is in the center. If your subs are set right, there should be a naturalness to his voice without bloat, boom or overhang even though the voice is quite deep and extended. Good upright bass as well that may reveal obvious room peaks at certain isolated frequencies.

 

[stehno]

Congrats!! This passage continues to improve with the calibre of the bottom octave. I use it for the bass and Natalie Merchant Live-The Gulf of Araby for the tweeter. If your system does both of these well, move to the front of the class...;-)

What I find interesting, Kerry, is that the Take Five Outtakes version is a true drum solo without piano or bass.

 

[DonJunker]

Hi all,

New guy on this forum, please be patient with me

I have been reading this thread + others with interest as I've been experimenting with subwoofer integration for the last couple of years (never ending story) My main focus is music not HT.

I have the Linkwitz LXstudio setup (LXmini + LXSub4) and two monopoles SVS SB-2000 to handle the lowest frequencies where the dipole subs starts roll off (very room and placement dependent).

My experiences are in line with this thread, that having all the speakers ~equidistant from the MLP yields the best result for music. I have tried placing the monopoles in different locations and crossed as low as 30Hz, but to my ears it simply does not sound torally correct when listening to stereo and some "attack" or wave seems to be missing, even though the frequency response may have fewer nulls. I usually just
PEQ the first couple of peaks in the minidsp.

So far I am running the LXmini and dipole subs full range. Have tried HP filtering of the dipole subs, but liked the overlapping between monopole and dipole subs better. Could experiment more though with HP/LV filter settings.

A couple of questions pop up when reading on these forums I hope you guys can clarify:

1) Often I read that the subwoofer XO frequency is adjusted to the nominal main speaker roll-off frequency (datasheet value). Isn't it better to measure the response at MLP with e.g. REW and adjust the subwoofer XO freq. to where the speakers actually roll off at the listening position?

Dependent on room and MLP it may be at a way different frequency than measured in an anechoic chamber. I can verify that having moved 4 times in the last 5 years and measured in room responses with the same equipment.

2) The XO frequencies for subs are often mentioned, but not the order and type of filter. Same goes for HP filter for mains. What's your preference?


I've attached a couple of pics of my setup in my new house with a less than ideal floor plan (L-shaped)

 

[musicfirst1]

As I reviewed this thread today, I have a few comments to add and reinforce.

So without further ado, my soapbox PUHLEEZ


"Subwoofers, once correctly setup, (see my other posts on this and other threads) are the LAST FRONTIER in High End Audio and provide a dramatic step forward in recreating the Musical event, regardless of the recording, the source, the electronics or, the main speakers.*"

Leaving subwoofers out of the equation, even in our 250k+ system results in a dramatic decrease in virtually every sonic parameter, as well as the emotional connection to the artist and performance, that simply can't be measured in quantitative terms.

This can and has been easily demonstrated in our reference system, as we can easily disconnect and reconnect our REL Gibraltars without shutting them down by disconnecting the high level speak-on connectors while the system is playing at realistic volumes

Simply put - EVERY recording suffers in the absence of the RELs. Symphonic, Opera, Live Concerts, Female Vocal, Jazz, Solo Violin, Piano, Bernstein, Kleiber, Coltrane, Miles, Bill, Ella, Harry, Keith, Pat...Everything and Everyone.

This demonstration method is always easily heard, and heard instantly. Not only by our clients but perhaps even more importantly, casusal friends, family and significant others.

And no one has EVER requested the RELs be taken out twice!

And while Bass demo tracks like the kettle drums on 'Fanfare for the Common Man', 'Allegro Molto' or 'Bercuse and Finale' or the Intro on the Eagles' 'Hotel California' Live, or the amazing 'Thanks to You' by Boz Scaggs, are easy choices for this type of demonstration, what is perhaps more surprising is how recordings like Sinatra's Live at the Sands, Diana Krall's Live in Paris or Belafonte's Live at Carnegie Hall assume a much more vivid presentation of the associated venue. Indeed these live recordings become even more 'alive' than ever before.

Part of the above effect is how (correctly sized and properly integrated) subs provide a pressurization to the listening space that almost all mains alone can't*.


There are those who will say that the above assertions are in some way related to bottom end deficiencies in our main speakers. This is simply not the case. Our Bayz Courantes measure -3db in-room down to 27hz without the subs. Our REL Gibraltar subwoofers are now crossed over at an astonishingly low 24hz.

*Some manufacturers have built in powered subwoofers in their speakers, and probably won't benefit from separate subs, and of course, statement speaker systems with separate subwoofers or subwoofer towers are largely exempt from this discussion.

**And unfortinately some rooms and more often, some Significant Others, will simply not accomodate a separate subwoofer or twelve..

 

[Minnesotafats]

For me, the "complications" come with trying to integrate the physical presence of the monolithic stacks of subwoofers with the mains.

It is virtually impossible to align the acoustic centers of 2x3 high stacks of subs with the acoustic centers of a conventional speaker like the Cygnus without negatively impacting on the imaging as compared to the Cygnus alone. (and as I detailed in the OP, placing the RELs behind the mains destroys the timing component of the bottom octave.)

And it is ABSOLUTELY impossible to do it with the Omni Directional Bayz Courantes (I couldn't even get a 2x2 REL stack to work...)

I went through the same struggle the past year trying to integrate a 2x2 stack of Rel N25s with my MBL 101s. Bottom line the subs need to be too close to the omni speakers for proper timing which messes up the Omni sound field. It's the equivalent of setting the 101s against a wall. Here is the 2x2 set up and then the 2 sub set up. It makes no sense crowding an Omni speaker with subs if you don't have to. With Rels you have to because of the timing issues.

 

[musicfirst1]

I am positive that if one ascribes to the belief that subs must be aligned more or less in-line with one's main speakers, then one simply cannot stack RELS with omnis, as the subwoofer cabinets simply destroy the soundstage once they reach the height of the midrange driver, whatever the omni drivers methodology of construction.

 

[Lagonda]

I went through the same struggle the past year trying to integrate a 2x2 stack of Rel N25s with my MBL 101s. Bottom line the subs need to be too close to the omni speakers for proper timing which messes up the Omni sound field. It's the equivalent of setting the 101s against a wall. Here is the 2x2 set up and then the 2 sub set up. It makes no sense crowding an Omni speaker with subs if you don't have to. With Rels you have to because of the timing issues.

Congratulations on getting a pair of MBL 9011 amps for your 101 speakers, i just love that combination ! How does the Gryphon CD compare to the MBL ?

 

[Minnesotafats]

Congratulations on getting a pair of MBL 9011 amps for your 101 speakers, i just love that combination ! How does the Gryphon CD compare to the MBL ?

I haven't done the Dac comparison yet because I am waiting to get the MBL Dac upgraded from E to F status. Love the MBL 9011 and MBL 6010 preamp combination. The Gryphon Ethos sounds amazing.

 

[caesar]

I went through the same struggle the past year trying to integrate a 2x2 stack of Rel N25s with my MBL 101s. Bottom line the subs need to be too close to the omni speakers for proper timing which messes up the Omni sound field. It's the equivalent of setting the 101s against a wall. Here is the 2x2 set up and then the 2 sub set up. It makes no sense crowding an Omni speaker with subs if you don't have to. With Rels you have to because of the timing issues.

Very interesting... thanks for sharing... So has this been a success or have you abandoned the stacked subs approach?

@Lagonda , How is your setup with Martin Logan towers different just having stacks of subs?

or different than a stack of subs that comes with MBL Extremes? Thanks in advance

 

[Minnesotafats]

Very interesting... thanks for sharing... So has this been a success or have you abandoned the stacked subs approach?

@Lagonda , How is your setup with Martin Logan towers different just having stacks of subs?

or different than a stack of subs that comes with MBL Extremes? Thanks in advance

I am abandoning the stack approach using the Rel N25s because of the timing relative to position issues talked about in this thread. I care about that leading edge of the bass note. I am speculating that @Lagonda has better electronics with the Martin Logan's to integrate the timing with his 101's compared to the current Rel N25s that I am using. It is my understanding that the electronics in the MBL Extreme sub tower allows for positioning of the sub tower up to 15 feet away from the main towers. I could be off on the distance but that is my rough understanding.

 

[Lagonda]

Very interesting... thanks for sharing... So has this been a success or have you abandoned the stacked subs approach?

@Lagonda , How is your setup with Martin Logan towers different just having stacks of subs?

or different than a stack of subs that comes with MBL Extremes? Thanks in advance

My sub stacks are very similarly to what MBL do with their Extremes, crossover point is 100 Hz 24 db slope. Very sensitive to placement and phase adjustment. My stacks are without internal amplification, i run all channels with with MBL 9011 amplification.The 101's have the 12 inch sub drivers disconnected and are crossed over by the internal passive crossover. I have also experimented with main speakers running down to 50HZ utilizing the internal 12 inch drivers, not as seamless as my current setup. Side wall, front wall and sub stack are all about 60 inches from main speaker radiation pattern. This setup is really hard to get right, when you adjust sub level and phase, getting the correct setting for each channel is hard, and they influence each other. You can have the total bass output correct and still be of between channels. I have also found amplifier placement and spike/cup/footer size and type to be important for integration between main speakers and sub towers. After a lot of experimentation i ended up preferring hard metal/ plastic footers directly on hardwood flooring ,over steel spikes into several different spike cups and stone surfaces.

 

[caesar]

My sub stacks are very similarly to what MBL do with their Extremes, crossover point is 100 Hz 24 db slope. Very sensitive to placement and phase adjustment. My stacks are without internal amplification, i run all channels with with MBL 9011 amplification.The 101's have the 12 inch sub drivers disconnected and are crossed over by the internal passive crossover. I have also experimented with main speakers running down to 50HZ utilizing the internal 12 inch drivers, not as seamless as my current setup. Side wall, front wall and sub stack are all about 60 inches from main speaker radiation pattern. This setup is really hard to get right, when you adjust sub level and phase, getting the correct setting for each channel is hard, and they influence each other. You can have the total bass output correct and still be of between channels. I have also found amplifier placement and spike/cup/footer size and type to be important for integration between main speakers and sub towers. After a lot of experimentation i ended up preferring hard metal/ plastic footers directly on hardwood flooring ,over steel spikes into several different spike cups and stone surfaces.

Brilliant stuff. I can only imagine the herculean effort to get it right. I feel your passion over the ether!

 

[Minnesotafats]

Congratulations on getting a pair of MBL 9011 amps for your 101 speakers, i just love that combination ! How does the Gryphon CD compare to the MBL ?

A very delayed reply to your question a year and a half ago. I listened to both the Gryphon Ethos and the MBL 1611F for about a month. Preferred the MBL in my all MBL setup. Synergy is relevant with this comparison. My buddy loves the Ethos in his Gryphon Driving CLX system n

 

[audioblazer]

Check out the following tracks .
1. Ratchets - Hedegaard
2. Crystal Ball - Carolin No
3. Dacoit Duel - AR Rahman
4. Bass I love You - Bassotronics
5. Jazz Variants - O Zone Percussion Group