A friend sent me this video discussing the technical challenges between the different types of arms. I was surprised to hear about the limitations of linear trackers and how in Fremer's and J.R.'s opinion, the tracking distortions of pivoted arms seem to do less damage to the final listening result.
Linear Tracking versus Pivoted Tonearms: A discussion
- Thread starter PeterA
- Start date
you do realize that investing an hour to be able to watch the video to respond makes it unlikely to have much response.
when i have time i'll try to watch it and comment. owned linear trackers on and off for many years. i will say that without actually living with a linear tracker long term it's hard to get their full measure. and they are not all created equal.
when i have time i'll try to watch it and comment. owned linear trackers on and off for many years. i will say that without actually living with a linear tracker long term it's hard to get their full measure. and they are not all created equal.
Mike, I am simply sharing it here for anyone interested in the subject. These are two of the experts discussing pros and cons.
I could post a 3 min YouTube of Monkeys flinging their Pooh … kinda amounts to the same thing …
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Linears are a constant challenge (read pita) and need that attn , when done so with due diligence they have no peer , pivot arms are left standing ...
i've only owned 3 linear trackers, the Rockport Sirius IISE for 18 months, the Sirius III for 9 years, and now the CS Port LFT1 for going on 6 years.
my experience is a little different, agree that linear trackers require due diligence, and there is a learning curve, and can be obstante until you figure them out. but once understood they play nice. maybe on the Rockport the air box did need some attention over time, but not the CS Port.
as far as being clearly superior to pivots it's not that simple and it depends on the pivot and the linear. the best pivots have fewer compromises than linear trackers. but there are some aspects of the music pivots cannot quite pull off like a linear tracker....pivots have a less distinct character than linear trackers.
and we are talking about tangential linear trackers here, specifically air bearing types.
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What I find interesting is that I had thought the main difference between these arm types is tracking distortion and that a linear tracking arms have a distinct advantage in this area over pivoting arms. Then a number of years ago Fremer said he prefers the 9 inch to 12 inch arm which has more tracking distortion.
Now we have both MF and JR, seeming to agree that tracking distortion is not the main issue, but that there are other distortions from linear tracker implementation, two different resonant frequencies, chatter, less than perfect cartridge construction, poor bearings with pivot arms, all factors that lead to greater issues that are more audible than is tracking distortion.
I thought it was a pretty interesting discussion focused on issues that are not often discussed when comparing these two different approaches.
I do find the video a bit long.
Now we have both MF and JR, seeming to agree that tracking distortion is not the main issue, but that there are other distortions from linear tracker implementation, two different resonant frequencies, chatter, less than perfect cartridge construction, poor bearings with pivot arms, all factors that lead to greater issues that are more audible than is tracking distortion.
I thought it was a pretty interesting discussion focused on issues that are not often discussed when comparing these two different approaches.
I do find the video a bit long.
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Linears have the benefit of theoretically being the best, the downside is all of the approaches have their drawbacks that makes whether they are worth the hassle questionable.
I'd still love to own one of the Clearaudio linears someday, but the details of the issues people have had with them have kept me away.
The Reed 5T looks like it would work well, but also looks unlikely to stay working long-term (e.g. how do you know the battery isn't low enough in voltage for the motor to not to work at speed, yet isn't yet reading low.)
For financial and frustration reasons I'm very over high-end products that don't actually work well in practice.
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That’s interesting. I had no idea that the Reed tonearm has a motor in it run by a battery.
When things are finicky and expensive and then don’t work, you have every reason to be frustrated. That’s a recipe for disaster.
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Easy solution to that - get the Reed 5A which is purely mechanical, and rather wonderful
I’ve not owned a linear tracker before adding the Vyger Atlantis and Titan pump/controller. I’ve had zero issues with the linear tracking arm. I’ve been more intrigued/ fascinated with the sonic differences heard increasing the air pressure to the arm.
Initially, I went with Giuseppe’s recommendation to set the pressure at .9 bar. Holy crap the transient attack was so much more intense than my prior AMG Viella table with Turbo tonearm. The air pressure to the arm can be dialed in within a range of .8 - 1.2 bar (with Titan controller. The manual controller has a larger range of adjustability.) The transient attack was too much for me. I panicked and called Giuseppe he said “oh, you’ve never experienced what a proper arm can deliver is OK” but suggested I dial the pressure down to .82 bar. Doing that had a huge difference and what I heard became more familiar — softer for sure. My prior phono stage, the Einstein, was criticized by Fremer in his review of adding a wee-bit of emphasis to the leading edge of transients. This adds a little bit of excitement and is not an unpleasant coloration but a coloration none-the-less. I thought the Vision tonearm at higher pressure was similar at first, but I was simply being astonished at the increase in playback level the Vyger offered vs my prior table.
Over the last months I’ve slowly bumped up the pressure and always the increase seems to improve all facets of playback. I recently set pressure again at .9 bar, but returned to .88 bar after playing Hugh Masekala’s Hope LP (which of course has all the dynamics one could want in a recording). So for now I’m set at .88, and will continue to experiment. I don’t imagine logging the preferred pressure for every LP, I can be a bit anal about some things but prefer set and forget.
In summary my experience with linear tracker is nothing but positive, and trouble free.
(Above post not intended to be an info-mercial. I represent Vyger turntables here in the Pacific NW.)
Initially, I went with Giuseppe’s recommendation to set the pressure at .9 bar. Holy crap the transient attack was so much more intense than my prior AMG Viella table with Turbo tonearm. The air pressure to the arm can be dialed in within a range of .8 - 1.2 bar (with Titan controller. The manual controller has a larger range of adjustability.) The transient attack was too much for me. I panicked and called Giuseppe he said “oh, you’ve never experienced what a proper arm can deliver is OK” but suggested I dial the pressure down to .82 bar. Doing that had a huge difference and what I heard became more familiar — softer for sure. My prior phono stage, the Einstein, was criticized by Fremer in his review of adding a wee-bit of emphasis to the leading edge of transients. This adds a little bit of excitement and is not an unpleasant coloration but a coloration none-the-less. I thought the Vision tonearm at higher pressure was similar at first, but I was simply being astonished at the increase in playback level the Vyger offered vs my prior table.
Over the last months I’ve slowly bumped up the pressure and always the increase seems to improve all facets of playback. I recently set pressure again at .9 bar, but returned to .88 bar after playing Hugh Masekala’s Hope LP (which of course has all the dynamics one could want in a recording). So for now I’m set at .88, and will continue to experiment. I don’t imagine logging the preferred pressure for every LP, I can be a bit anal about some things but prefer set and forget.
In summary my experience with linear tracker is nothing but positive, and trouble free.
(Above post not intended to be an info-mercial. I represent Vyger turntables here in the Pacific NW.)
At .9 bar, did you change other settings like VTA, did that make a difference?
You know I rate Vyger sonically the best, but to the thread's point I haven't preferred other LTs to pivots though I would like to investigate Schroeder LT more.
Hi Ked, I haven’t explored VTA adjustments—tonally I haven’t noticed a difference when adjusting pressure, not to say someone with more acute hearing wouldn’t. Its a nice nudge though and worth some exploration.
Hi Bobvin, I have similar experience with my Rockport Sirius II’s arm, with which I am using 32.4 psi (roughly 2.2 bar) of pressure. To my ears, everything improve, ie imaging, bass attack etc., with higher pressure, up to a point. Beyond that, there is a sense of nervousness in the sound, maybe that is what you called more intense transient attack!
I understand that your Vyger also has an airbearing platter, and I wonder if you have experimenting with the pressure there. Similar to the arm, I find that, with the Sirius II platter, the higher the pressure the better, up to a point (I am using 35.8 psi). However, I am not sure whether this increase in pressure also elevates the platter microscopically, so the VTA/SRA also changes slightly.
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ok so i promised Argonaut to maybe chime in and talk about this issue, i had watched the video also right nowת that Peter posted to understand what we are talking about (was somewhat a waste of time, but anyway i watch a lot of shit occasionally so...
I wish I had kept my music on...
)
as Argonaut told me, I'm maybe the only one in the world with a VYGER INDIAN SIG with
two arms, one LT and one pivot (I know there are some out there with two LT), so he thought my experience would be great to heard of regarding the subject. I can promise you it probably will not
so i will relate to the video first just to honor the OP of course, and then some of my meaningless bubbling...
as much as i respect Mr fremer and JR from Wolly (i never used one of his tools unfortunately, to learn what they can do. but i appreciate his expertise and pursuit for perfection in the analog domain) the main parts of the video relate to the "problems" LT has to maintain accurate tangible lines and the sloppy and the incompetent design many manufacturers have around doing them.
As I don't know all of them or had experience with a lot of them (just a few and a few more from friends whom I visited regularly), I think it's a bit of a "bashing"... as good as they think pivot arms are the best solution to compare.
A lot of us had an experience with multi numbers of arms and we all got some good, better and less than acceptable outcomes. We all know that synergy and accurate (sometimes ultra accurate) tuning is a lot more important than name dropping and sales marketing.
to each their own also with tubes vs SS etc. I think most of the highly related companies surely know what they're doing even if some of them fail to impress one of us.
to their other conversation about the subject i listened and watched i could argue the same "problems" with pivoted arms too; sloppy barings, problem with resonance below 8hz, springs in use, different materials that are different from each other to overcome or not solutions or to be a problem after . and malfunctions in hundreds of ways. so i guess, if you buy and have the experience to maintain your system's perfect alignment and tuning you will be ok with whatever route you will choose.
I might have written some stupid stuff, but that is what I initially thought while watching the video. it's not so coked out text edited and with choreography
Prior to my thoughts about my own two arms right now on the Indian, I had some experience with a number of analog systems in my (short) life . I've been into vinyl for the last 30 years and had quite a lot of experience with that regard.
from Project turntable and denon dl103 through a lot! to name a few, VPI, Clearaudio, brinkmann, Techdas, j.sikora. csport, torque audio, thorens, gerrard, Lenco, Micro seiki, dynavector, sme, you name it!
not to mention more and more arms, cart's that is to difficult to count, phono stages, cables, racks etc... ultimately i ended up with the VYGER indian sig with 2 arms, one is the Vision Lt and the other one (that is mounted right now) its the J.sikora max 9" and i have it for a year now.... playing every day for hours! and not looking sideways at the moment for a replacement (in my book that says a lot!).
I find this table and arm from Vyger are extremely musical, powerful and dynamic.
it captures all my music from the vinyl and moves it along through the rest of my system.
the Vyger LT is a magnificent species and when dial correctly (as all LT arms LOVE) its performs superbly with no misstracking, problems, distortion etc...
The only argument (to my experience) to go for Pivot arm against it is
1 - you don't have the experience or the knowledge or the ability to dial and tune to perfection - it needs to be for optimal operation.
2 - you don't have the time or the patience to do so... (we most are)
3- you don't have the "room" for it or the system to get it work (if its not a system that can accommodate)
4 - you want some other coloring characteristic with your other cartridges (that what i did eventually)
I can tell you right now that 95% of the time my hand will gravitate to the Vision LT for a listen... and my pivot is there when I swap cartridges, play with some other stuff or want to experiment with a different approach for some specific record.
I think the J.sikora max 9" is an AMAZING arm and with some of my best cartridges I could live with that set forever, until you hear the LT playing.. and it's all a done deal.
The effortless dynamics, bass and clarity is almost unrivaled, the LT is smooth sounding with no harshness or modulation across. its almost invisible for characteristic or coloring, my cartridges could be mounted on and you can hear them clearly with no "arm color".
i was testing a lot of other arms vs linear (plurals) for many years, even the clearaudio TT2 that i HATE! sounded better than most of my pivot arms.
of course, there is no *one* truth to the subject and I'm not defending LT or ambassador to this design. almost the opposite, I always said to many of my friends and ppl who consulted with me to stir away from thos. The effort to make it sound very very good is enormous relative to the average joe that just wants to put on a record and chile.
btw i'm not saying that you do not need almost the same effort for the pivot arm to sound at its best, but for us that experience both sides and have them both, we know how frustrating LT is to compare.
either way. when you have a full system design to work together and dial it to it teath to my experience it will be very hard to beat.
I wish I had kept my music on...
) as Argonaut told me, I'm maybe the only one in the world with a VYGER INDIAN SIG with
two arms, one LT and one pivot (I know there are some out there with two LT), so he thought my experience would be great to heard of regarding the subject. I can promise you it probably will not
so i will relate to the video first just to honor the OP of course, and then some of my meaningless bubbling...
as much as i respect Mr fremer and JR from Wolly (i never used one of his tools unfortunately, to learn what they can do. but i appreciate his expertise and pursuit for perfection in the analog domain) the main parts of the video relate to the "problems" LT has to maintain accurate tangible lines and the sloppy and the incompetent design many manufacturers have around doing them.
As I don't know all of them or had experience with a lot of them (just a few and a few more from friends whom I visited regularly), I think it's a bit of a "bashing"... as good as they think pivot arms are the best solution to compare.
A lot of us had an experience with multi numbers of arms and we all got some good, better and less than acceptable outcomes. We all know that synergy and accurate (sometimes ultra accurate) tuning is a lot more important than name dropping and sales marketing.
to each their own also with tubes vs SS etc. I think most of the highly related companies surely know what they're doing even if some of them fail to impress one of us.
to their other conversation about the subject i listened and watched i could argue the same "problems" with pivoted arms too; sloppy barings, problem with resonance below 8hz, springs in use, different materials that are different from each other to overcome or not solutions or to be a problem after . and malfunctions in hundreds of ways. so i guess, if you buy and have the experience to maintain your system's perfect alignment and tuning you will be ok with whatever route you will choose.
I might have written some stupid stuff, but that is what I initially thought while watching the video. it's not so coked out text edited and with choreography
Prior to my thoughts about my own two arms right now on the Indian, I had some experience with a number of analog systems in my (short) life . I've been into vinyl for the last 30 years and had quite a lot of experience with that regard.
from Project turntable and denon dl103 through a lot! to name a few, VPI, Clearaudio, brinkmann, Techdas, j.sikora. csport, torque audio, thorens, gerrard, Lenco, Micro seiki, dynavector, sme, you name it!
not to mention more and more arms, cart's that is to difficult to count, phono stages, cables, racks etc... ultimately i ended up with the VYGER indian sig with 2 arms, one is the Vision Lt and the other one (that is mounted right now) its the J.sikora max 9" and i have it for a year now.... playing every day for hours! and not looking sideways at the moment for a replacement (in my book that says a lot!).
I find this table and arm from Vyger are extremely musical, powerful and dynamic.
it captures all my music from the vinyl and moves it along through the rest of my system.
the Vyger LT is a magnificent species and when dial correctly (as all LT arms LOVE) its performs superbly with no misstracking, problems, distortion etc...
The only argument (to my experience) to go for Pivot arm against it is
1 - you don't have the experience or the knowledge or the ability to dial and tune to perfection - it needs to be for optimal operation.
2 - you don't have the time or the patience to do so... (we most are)
3- you don't have the "room" for it or the system to get it work (if its not a system that can accommodate)
4 - you want some other coloring characteristic with your other cartridges (that what i did eventually)
I can tell you right now that 95% of the time my hand will gravitate to the Vision LT for a listen... and my pivot is there when I swap cartridges, play with some other stuff or want to experiment with a different approach for some specific record.
I think the J.sikora max 9" is an AMAZING arm and with some of my best cartridges I could live with that set forever, until you hear the LT playing.. and it's all a done deal.
The effortless dynamics, bass and clarity is almost unrivaled, the LT is smooth sounding with no harshness or modulation across. its almost invisible for characteristic or coloring, my cartridges could be mounted on and you can hear them clearly with no "arm color".
i was testing a lot of other arms vs linear (plurals) for many years, even the clearaudio TT2 that i HATE! sounded better than most of my pivot arms.
of course, there is no *one* truth to the subject and I'm not defending LT or ambassador to this design. almost the opposite, I always said to many of my friends and ppl who consulted with me to stir away from thos. The effort to make it sound very very good is enormous relative to the average joe that just wants to put on a record and chile.
btw i'm not saying that you do not need almost the same effort for the pivot arm to sound at its best, but for us that experience both sides and have them both, we know how frustrating LT is to compare.
either way. when you have a full system design to work together and dial it to it teath to my experience it will be very hard to beat.
Thank you for your latest considerations Aviad , As I had hoped , given the scarcity of this particular combination of Turntable , Linear Tracking tonearm whilst paired concurrently with a fine quality Pivot Tonearm , your perspective being both informative and enlightening .
In my Vyger report I did document one experience of the Indian with the MSL and also having on it the pivoted Da Vinci with the DS audio master.
While I preferred the LT on almost all tracks, in analog the multiple data points of Aviad are more important than his single data point in one system. The reason being that just like you can make a SET sound bad by putting it on an Apogee scintilla, you can make a LT sound compromised by downstream components. But what Aviad has realized across his multiple experiences, is that he is hearing something from an LT done right that is just not available in any pivot. It is 2018 and 2019 I used to listen to the Genera's vyger, and no matter how hard I try to find an alternative, no analog comes close to producing something like this. It feels like it is writing the music in running cursive hand, the music just is there, while all other arms are typing the music with a predefined structure (the video is from years before I heard the Mayer Pnoe system). I do think low watt efficient systems draw out nuances of LTs better.
While I preferred the LT on almost all tracks, in analog the multiple data points of Aviad are more important than his single data point in one system. The reason being that just like you can make a SET sound bad by putting it on an Apogee scintilla, you can make a LT sound compromised by downstream components. But what Aviad has realized across his multiple experiences, is that he is hearing something from an LT done right that is just not available in any pivot. It is 2018 and 2019 I used to listen to the Genera's vyger, and no matter how hard I try to find an alternative, no analog comes close to producing something like this. It feels like it is writing the music in running cursive hand, the music just is there, while all other arms are typing the music with a predefined structure (the video is from years before I heard the Mayer Pnoe system). I do think low watt efficient systems draw out nuances of LTs better.
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"It feels like it is writing the music in running cursive hand, the music just is there, while all other arms are typing the music with a predefined structure "
i think i couldn't write it better.
The Vision LT is really one of a kind (from my experience) if it's by design, because of the high pressure air bad or whatever Pino had done there...
it's not being rivaled to this date.
The attack and bass reproduction as for details and fluidity is something that needs to be heard to understand.
but for general speaking, i think all LT will be more relaxed and right for music on vinyl dialed properly, like i said i had CA tt2 (i hated this arm so much!) and when it works it was Great! The kuzma air I know from a good friend of mine and there is always a lack of "arm" signature to it also compared to his other arms (SAT, Schroeder etc.. ) but his compressor is annoying! I also have the CSport tt2 with their LT arm and it is a magnificent performer, but too polite sounding compared to the Vision. Also the Bergman seems to sound and work flawlessly every time I visit Stavros from Aries cerat... (not to mention his own design beast of a turntable and arms!!!)
i think i couldn't write it better.
The Vision LT is really one of a kind (from my experience) if it's by design, because of the high pressure air bad or whatever Pino had done there...
it's not being rivaled to this date.
The attack and bass reproduction as for details and fluidity is something that needs to be heard to understand.
but for general speaking, i think all LT will be more relaxed and right for music on vinyl dialed properly, like i said i had CA tt2 (i hated this arm so much!) and when it works it was Great! The kuzma air I know from a good friend of mine and there is always a lack of "arm" signature to it also compared to his other arms (SAT, Schroeder etc.. ) but his compressor is annoying! I also have the CSport tt2 with their LT arm and it is a magnificent performer, but too polite sounding compared to the Vision. Also the Bergman seems to sound and work flawlessly every time I visit Stavros from Aries cerat... (not to mention his own design beast of a turntable and arms!!!)
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