"Long-Term Equipment Loans: A Win-Win for Everyone" by Robert Harley, The Absolute Sound

[PeterA]

For his December 2022 review of the Burmeister 159 monoblocks Mr Harley spent TWO days at a dealer auditioning them and from that experience was able to declare them the 2022 Solid State Amplifiers Of The Year. He gave some reasons why he did the review that way but I think what stands out for me is the short length of time it took to determine they were the best of the best.

Perhaps his new room was not yet ready in time. Those were last year. Now he has eight CH precision M 10 boxes. I didn’t catch from his video whether those are on long-term loan or if he bought them.

 

[Daverich4]

Perhaps his new room was not yet ready in time. Those were last year. Now he has eight CH precision M 10 boxes. I didn’t catch from his video whether those are on long-term loan or if he bought them.

In the review he says it was done that way because of the weight of the monoblocks although the pair only weigh about 100 lbs. more that a single Chronosonic XVX. In any event, my point was not whether the auditioning was done at a dealer or his home, two days was all that was needed.

 

[Another Johnson]

For his December 2022 review of the Burmeister 159 monoblocks Mr Harley spent TWO days at a dealer auditioning them and from that experience was able to declare them the 2022 Solid State Amplifiers Of The Year. He gave some reasons why he did the review that way but I think what stands out for me is the short length of time it took to determine they were the best of the best.

I just bought the Burmester 911 mk3 after extensive casual auditioning of the Burmester line over 8 months, followed by intense auditioning of things I could afford over two days.

I would say that in the areas that are important to me, Burmester amps are the best I’ve heard. I’ve had the 911 mk3 in my system for five days, and it sounds even more remarkable here than it did in the excellent demos.

 

[Another Johnson]

You can get a lot accomplished in two days if you’ve planned the audition schedule in advance and the dealer has the muscle to do quick swaps. Also, I was surprised at how few musical notes it took to recognize the qualities of many high end amps. This probably depends on how well you’re cued in to the issues that float your boat. The better the gear and demo environment, the less time it takes to form an opinion.

I’m not saying that RH’s call was right, but I am saying that he must have had confidence in his call. Now the question becomes “do you have confidence in his call?” In my case I did not know his choice because I really don’t care what he thinks. I don’t think I read that article.

 

[Lee]

I just bought the Burmester 911 mk3 after extensive casual auditioning of the Burmester line over 8 months, followed by intense auditioning of things I could afford over two days.

I would say that in the areas that are important to me, Burmester amps are the best I’ve heard. I’ve had the 911 mk3 in my system for five days, and it sounds even more remarkable here than it did in the excellent demos.

Congratulations!

 

[Daverich4]

You can get a lot accomplished in two days if you’ve planned the audition schedule in advance and the dealer has the muscle to do quick swaps. Also, I was surprised at how few musical notes it took to recognize the qualities of many high end amps. This probably depends on how well you’re cued in to the issues that float your boat. The better the gear and demo environment, the less time it takes to form an opinion.

I’m not saying that RH’s call was right, but I am saying that he must have had confidence in his call. Now the question becomes “do you have confidence in his call?” In my case I did not know his choice because I really don’t care what he thinks. I don’t think I read that article.

The discussion in this thread is what length of time is appropriate for a long term loan. In this one example two days was all the time required to complete the audition and no loan at all was required. I’m not questioning how or where the review was done or the conclusion at the end of it. Just pointing out how little time was required in this specific case. If that’s all that’s needed this time perhaps that’s what should be expected in other cases.

 

[microstrip]

I just bought the Burmester 911 mk3 after extensive casual auditioning of the Burmester line over 8 months, followed by intense auditioning of things I could afford over two days.

I would say that in the areas that are important to me, Burmester amps are the best I’ve heard. I’ve had the 911 mk3 in my system for five days, and it sounds even more remarkable here than it did in the excellent demos.

Congratulations - I listened to Burmester 911 in an all Burmester system and it sounded great. I was really interested in it for the Sonus Faber Aida's, but was put off by the XLR input impedance -1.88Kohms. What preamplfier are you using with it?

 

[Another Johnson]

Well, lucky me. I happen to have last December’s issue of TAS, and so I grabbed it to read RH’s thoughts.

Imagine my surprise when I agreed with EVERYTHING he wrote. In fact, I was quite impressed with the match between our impressions.

I don’t usually read about $350k amplifiers. They’re WAY out of my league. I have auditioned the 159s on a pair of Chronosonic XVX, with the 077 preamp, Vivaldi Apex stack, and high level Transparent loom. But it was a casual audition … not a serious evaluation. Like the Wilson DNA, the Burmester DNA clearly shows from one end of the line to the other. The Burmester character, as RH describes it, is present in the 218 and in the 911 mk3 as well.

 

[Another Johnson]

The discussion in this thread is what length of time is appropriate for a long term loan. In this one example two days was all the time required to complete the audition and no loan at all was required. I’m not questioning how or where the review was done or the conclusion at the end of it. Just pointing out how little time was required in this specific case. If that’s all that’s needed this time perhaps that’s what should be expected in other cases.

Yes, you make a good point.

 

[Another Johnson]

What preamplfier are you using with it?

The audition was first with the Burmester 088, and then later with the ARC REF6SE (like the one I already own). I liked them both. I am enjoying the REF6SE in my system for now.

If a deal on a Burmester 088 or 077 came along, I’d be tempted.

 

[microstrip]

The audition was first with the Burmester 088, and then later with the ARC REF6SE (like the one I already own). I liked them both. I am enjoying the REF6SE in my system for now.

If a deal on a Burmester 088 or 077 came along, I’d be tempted.

Interesting - objectively the REF6SE would not be compatible with the 911. Do you have a specification for the input impedance in the manual of your 911 mk3?

 

[Another Johnson]

Interesting - objectively the REF6SE would not be compatible with the 911. Do you have a specification for the input impedance in the manual of your 911 mk3?

I’ve been told that the printed spec, which is absurdly low, is a misprint. I’ve seen a lot of discussion about this on forums. Even some discussion pointing out the misprint. I have not personally measured it.

In any event … The gain is all there. The bass is all there. The distortion isn’t there. My ears tell me it is a good match. If the misprinted spec were correct, it would be clearly a bad match.

The dealer is Paragon Sight and Sound and they have several customers that they’ve set up with ARC preamps and Burmester amps. They’re one of the most knowledgeable dealers in the US and their service department is an authorized service center for ARC and for McIntosh. I discussed the match with a staff technician.

For me, the proof is in the listening.

 

[microstrip]

I’ve been told that the printed spec, which is absurdly low, is a misprint. I’ve seen a lot of discussion about this on forums. Even some discussion pointing out the misprint. I have not personally measured it.

In any event … The gain is all there. The bass is all there. The distortion isn’t there. My ears tell me it is a good match. If the misprinted spec were correct, it would be clearly a bad match.

The dealer is Paragon Sight and Sound and they have several customers that they’ve set up with ARC preamps and Burmester amps. They’re one of the most knowledgeable dealers in the US and their service department is an authorized service center for ARC and for McIntosh. I discussed the match with a staff technician.

For me, the proof is in the listening.

Then probably the low value is wrong. But is such an easy thing to measure that I am astonished that no one ever corrected it!

Since long I have a XLR male plug connected to a female XLR using two 10 kohm resistors and an wire to connect grounds. Using it takes me 30 seconds to measure input impedance.

 

[Another Johnson]

Then probably the low value is wrong. But is such an easy thing to measure that I am astonished that no one ever corrected it!

Since long I have a XLR male plug connected to a female XLR using two 10 kohm resistors and a wire to connect grounds. Using it takes me 30 seconds to measure input impedance.

If it were correct, it would not even be a good match for their own preamps.

The input configuration is modifiable. From stereo to biwired to monoblock, each config requires modifications that can be done either in the field, or at the factory. The specs are not included in the dedicated manual. They are in an appendix to a supplemental book that includes every model in the line. Sort of like what Wilson includes.

There is very little detail about their actual operation. They claim a proprietary design that is class A. But they call it Class A-X.

It sounds like it’s Class A at my listening levels. I have speculated that it could be an early multi rail version of Class G. There are an enormous number of well thought out paths for natural convection. Much more clever than the old Krell KSA series. The darnedest thing is that they do not get hot with my loads (Sasha DAWs).

The amp started as the 911 30 years ago. It evolved to the mk2 and mk3. I don’t know when they started coming into the US, but reviews begin to appear for the mk3 maybe 13 years ago. And there are reviews as recently as 2019 that imply the amp is something recent.

I’ve been listening to Bach’s Matthaus-Passion tonight. It is the clearest I’ve ever heard it

 

[Another Johnson]

In the review he says it was done that way because of the weight of the monoblocks although the pair only weigh about 100 lbs. more that a single Chronosonic XVX. In any event, my point was not whether the auditioning was done at a dealer or his home, two days was all that was needed.

Just to add some detail … the 159s, without crates, weigh 396 pounds each. The shipping cost may have a factor in not shipping them. And the $350k price tag on what is finished on the level of fancy jewelry may have also been of concern. One ding on a fin, or one scratch on the chrome, and it’s a boat anchor as far as $350k customers are concerned.

We are discussing long term equipment loans and it appears that Burmester was unwilling to loan out this pair of amps. But they still figured out how to get them reviewed. And in just two days. LMC is one of only two Burmester premium dealerships in the US, and they’re fairly close to RH’s neck of the woods, so this was a good solution.

This is another one of those threads where we can be self righteous and indignant, but we can’t really change anything … and if we could, would we want to? I dunno … the magazines are fun. Do we want to turn them into professional journals and squeeze the life out of them?

 

[mtemur]

Question for everyone:
How long should a review loan be for?
A) 3 months
B) 6 months
C) 1 year
d) No time limit

Till the new version is out. I think practically what's happening now.

 

[Lee]

Till the new version is out. I think practically what's happening now.

And that may not be a bad idea. It allows the reviewer better aural memory to compare to the new item. It certainly helped me understand the Alexia V by sending back the Alexia 2 at the same time the V arrived and saved time for the manufacturer as well.

 

[Elliot G.]

So you are ok with 3 to 5 years on a loan?
I'm sorry that isnt a loan for a review in my book thats a never ending gift.
Where so I sign up for that?Im sure everyone here would gladly take a pair of 300k speakers for 3 to 5 years at no cost let alone all the gear that goes with it. You want to keep it BUY it.
I am not accusing anyone of anything but to think this is ok and it is fair , an balanced playing field and unbiased is IMO rediculous.
To the many small manufacturers this is unacceptable, they can't afford to do this and the juice is not worth the squeeze.

How did what you did help anyone but you and the company having control over you and what you say.
What you got wasa HUGE perk period. Good marketing by Wilson that I agree but nothing beyond them keeping thier customer and their FAN.

On the other subject a review can be done in a strange space on a Burmeister in 2 days but at the same time need to keep other products 4 years. Things that make you go hmmmmm?
Please someone explain this to me like I'm a 5 year old.

 

[Lee]

So you are ok with 3 to 5 years on a loan?
I'm sorry that isnt a loan for a review in my book thats a never ending gift.
Where so I sign up for that?Im sure everyone here would gladly take a pair of 300k speakers for 3 to 5 years at no cost let alone all the gear that goes with it. You want to keep it BUY it.
I am not accusing anyone of anything but to think this is ok and it is fair , an balanced playing field and unbiased is IMO rediculous.
To the many small manufacturers this is unacceptable, they can't afford to do this and the juice is not worth the squeeze.

How did what you did help anyone but you and the company having control over you and what you say.
What you got wasa HUGE perk period. Good marketing by Wilson that I agree but nothing beyond them keeping thier customer and their FAN.

On the other subject a review can be done in a strange space on a Burmeister in 2 days but at the same time need to keep other products 4 years. Things that make you go hmmmmm?
Please someone explain this to me like I'm a 5 year old.

Yes, I do think long-term equipment loans are fine. In my own personal case, I bought the Wilson Audio loudspeakers. In fact, I have purchased every item in my stereo system.

I also believe Robert made a good argument for the Burmester audition and review.

I think what ultimately one is getting from a review includes these things:

1. Selection for the review. This generally indicates some stability in the brand and its dealer network.

2. The expertise of the reviewer. An opinion of what it does well and not well by someone who has had the experience of listening to many, many audio products.

3. An explanation of any technology and features, and feedback on which of those is interesting and or valuable.

4. In the case of a senior reviewer, someone who has more influence and deeper experience. That can be helpful for both consumer and manufacturer.

I honestly don't believe long-term loans detract from these four points of value.

 

[andromedaaudio]

I think the problem here is not the magazines / reviewers.
The problem is a lot of consumers are dumb and wanna be fooled and swallow blindly what they re presented.
Its never gonna change consumers want a ' whats best " trophy " and the " expert "magazines give it to them gladly.

This discussion is like ' changing the world iow its never gonna happen because there is no demand for it by the consumer .
There might be from the odd manufacturer / dealer who isnt satisfied but thats probaby it.

I personally cant believe that people who have been an audiofile / music lover for 20 30 years still read those mags / Still spend time discussing them