"Long-Term Equipment Loans: A Win-Win for Everyone" by Robert Harley, The Absolute Sound

[andromedaaudio]

The AIAP (Audio Industry Publications Association) discussion again?

People want drama / controversy
Playing by the rules is boring lol.
Magazines who bring the most drama are probably the most popular same like newspapers


Besides everything is bought / paid for in the US why would the big magazine / audio industry be any different.

To find satisfying audio gear you gotto do your homework and find what suits you.
Luckily most of the time its not related to price

 

[Another Johnson]

Besides everything is bought / paid for in the US why would the big magazine / audio industry be any different.

Of course it is not like this in the Netherlands. The people in Holland are much wiser and more sensible about their trading and evaluating than those foolish Americans.

The perspective of an aspiring “Wilson killing” speaker designer/builder/seller adds seasoning, like MSG, to this whole “word salad.” Do you know how hard it is to get reviewed?

 

[andromedaaudio]

Do you know how hard it is to get reviewed?

PTP like in any other business on this planet

 

[Carlos269]

So free trips all expenses paid , extravagant dinners and bottles at the best restaurants along with forever loans is standard procedure and that you think helps get a fair and unbiased opinion. Interesting your description not mine.
Who Lee are the magazines for ? The readers or the manufacturers ? That answer to me change’s absolutely everything so please answer !
The same behavior would disqualify any College Athlete, Judge, lawyer, CPA , Cop etc but for a reviewer it’s ok?
A two day in strange environment glowing review is proof of this?
Man you guys have really strange criteria you accept.? I guess as long as it’s info is something you like who the heck cares.
if tier 2 companies even make better product how do they get noticed, Do you have any idea how hard it is to get your product reviewed ?

It sounds like even the YouTube guys like the Audiophile Junkie and Jay from Jay’s Audio Lab also got the all expenses paid trip to Magico to promote the M9 and the Magico brand. What happened to unbiased and independent reporting? Is it all gone for good? The influencing powers of free gifts & loaners are hard to overcome and the entire industry is now driven by the pay to play spirit and practice.

 

[andromedaaudio]

” Do you know how hard it is to get reviewed?

I dont know , may be the almighty dollar has something to do with it dont you think ??

Or are they all Saints in the US?

 

[mtemur]

THe fact that you purchased gear at accomodation and then they took it back and gave you new gear at accomodation really shows a level of control. You like the speakers great thats your choice but you have not had others in your room which was accomplished by
the accomodation provided by the manufacturer.

This raise the question how much will the accommodation price be. For example a speaker with 300K retail price is the accommodation price gonna be 10K or 100K? Is there a standard percentage for this? A big manufacturer can compensate the loss, let’s say 10K accommodation price for a 300K speaker while a small company couldn’t. I think instead of accommodation price distributor price is more appropriate which is around 1/3 or less of retail. Because this way we can know manufacturer isn’t gifting and reviewer isn’t in debt to manufacturer.

 

[Lee]

So free trips all expenses paid , extravagant dinners and bottles at the best restaurants along with forever loans is standard procedure and that you think helps get a fair and unbiased opinion. Interesting your description not mine.
Who Lee are the magazines for ? The readers or the manufacturers ? That answer to me change’s absolutely everything so please answer !
The same behavior would disqualify any College Athlete, Judge, lawyer, CPA , Cop etc but for a reviewer it’s ok?
A two day in strange environment glowing review is proof of this?
Man you guys have really strange criteria you accept.? I guess as long as it’s info is something you like who the heck cares.
if tier 2 companies even make better product how do they get noticed, Do you have any idea how hard it is to get your product reviewed ?

Your speaker brand Goebel just did a press junket at Munich. Was that wrong too? You complained to me about TAS not sending a single reviewer which I agreed was wrong.

Factory tours, press junkets at least get new information out and people see the factory. That’s helpful for a reviewer to know a company in that level of detail.

 

[Lee]

This raise the question how much will the accommodation price be. For example a speaker with 300K retail price is the accommodation price gonna be 10K or 100K? Is there a standard percentage for this? A big manufacturer can compensate the loss, let’s say 10K accommodation price for a 300K speaker while a small company couldn’t. I think instead of accommodation price distributor price is more appropriate which is around 1/3 or less of retail. Because this way we can know manufacturer isn’t gifting and reviewer isn’t in debt to manufacturer.

Typical accommodation is 50-55% off retail.

 

[Elliot G.]

Your speaker brand Goebel just did a press junket at Munich. Was that wrong too? You complained to me about TAS not sending a single reviewer which I agreed was wrong.

Factory tours, press junkets at least get new information out and people see the factory. That’s helpful for a reviewer to know a company in that level of detail.

We invited all the press to come visit the new factory and see what Oliver built along with visiting the new sound rooms . We didn’t pay anyone anything to come or attend it was a party they received an invitation . In my mind that’s quite different than a private prepaid first class ticket to Europe , prepaid hotels, prepaid meals in exchange or as part of a review.
We don’t have any product on long term extended loan. We don’t pay anyone for their review.
FYI i have refused review samples to people based on the time frame they said they wanted to keep the gear.
I’m proud of how we do business !

 

[Lee]

We invited all the press to come visit the new factory and see what Oliver built along with visiting the new sound rooms . We didn’t pay anyone anything to come or attend it was a party they received an invitation . In my mind that’s quite different than a private prepaid first class ticket to Europe , prepaid hotels, prepaid meals in exchange or as part of a review.
We don’t have any product on long term extended loan. We don’t pay anyone for their review.
FYI i have refused review samples to people based on the time frame they said they wanted to keep the gear.
I’m proud of how we do business !

Goebel offered free transportation from the show and provided free drinks and food. If we follow your logic then there is bias.

All of this stuff is standard except for payments for a review but I never saw that happen at TAS or hifi+.

I really don’t think this creates bias. Reviewers are aware their reputation depends on objective coverage.

 

[mtemur]

Typical accommodation is 50-55% off retail.

Wow that’s high. Do you believe reviewers paid %50-55 of retail for all the equipment they “own”?

 

[microstrip]

So free trips all expenses paid , extravagant dinners and bottles at the best restaurants along with forever loans is standard procedure and that you think helps get a fair and unbiased opinion.

Surely it helps. Does any one have any doubt in it? But there is a reverse face in every coin - tipically manufacturers that support such uses have excellent products, a large distribution network and many good dealers spread all over the world that provide proper assistance and service. What would be the point of having top reviewers with extended loans of products the majority of readers can't listen easily? It is great to know they have a reference I can listen traveling 100 km.

Interesting your description not mine.
Who Lee are the magazines for ? The readers or the manufacturers ? That answer to me change’s absolutely everything so please answer !

Yes, for the majority of the readers, not for a few members of audio forums, as you and me, who have time to spend here and enjoy doing it ...

The same behavior would disqualify any College Athlete, Judge, lawyer, CPA , Cop etc but for a reviewer it’s ok?
A two day in strange environment glowing review is proof of this?
Man you guys have really strange criteria you accept.? I guess as long as it’s info is something you like who the heck cares.
if tier 2 companies even make better product how do they get noticed, Do you have any idea how hard it is to get your product reviewed ?

Sorry, but the associations you try to compare to audio magazines suggest that your perspective is completely out of reality. The high-end is an industry and a business, and audio magazines are not a state owned certification association.

People who want to have a plural information must read different magazines and sources and remember that there is no unbiased information in an hobby that is lead by listening bias. Yes, I know that this is hard to listen to many people. Just MO, YMMV.

 

[Lee]

Wow that’s high. Do you believe reviewers paid %50-55 of retail for all the equipment they “own”?

Yep, that’s standard across electronics and speakers.

 

[Elliot G.]

Goebel offered free transportation from the show and provided free drinks and food. If we follow your logic then there is bias.

All of this stuff is standard except for payments for a review but I never saw that happen at TAS or hifi+.

I really don’t think this creates bias. Reviewers are aware their reputation depends on objective coverage.

Of course they did when you invite someone to a party you provide food a drink.
Funny Don't remember you being there. In fact don't remembers inviting you either.

 

[Lee]

No, that’s standard across electronics and speakers.

To answer Elliot’s question, the magazines have to do two things. Create value for the reader (reviews for equipment selection and setup advice and music selection) and pay for the business by getting manufacturer ads. The manufacturer benefits from the extra reach and credibility of the magazine.

 

[andromedaaudio]

All of this stuff is standard except for payments for a review but I never saw that happen at TAS or hifi+.

I really don’t think this creates bias. Reviewers are aware their reputation depends on objective coverage.

Lol.
You review products from manufacturers who advertize in your magazine.

U want me to believe otherwise.
PTP.

Its like in any other business , you do for me i do for you

 

[Elliot G.]

To answer Elliot’s question, the magazines have to do two things. Create value for the reader (reviews for equipment selection and setup advice and music selection) and pay for the business by getting manufacturer ads. The manufacturer benefits from the extra reach and credibility of the magazine.

thank you.

 

[Lee]

Lol.
You review products from manufacturers who advertize in your magazine.

U want me to believe otherwise.

Its like in any other business , you do for me i for you

I am not involved in TAS or hifi+ anymore. TAS reviews many products that don’t advertise. Always has.

 

[Lee]

If you think broadly about gear advice, then every source brings some level of bias.

Your best friend’s view is limited by their own experience with brands. I have friends whose parents had McIntosh gear and they love it too. Good stuff with a great heritage but can be too warm for people. I have a soft spot for Vandersteen, TEAC, and Philips turntables since my Dad owned it.

Your favorite YouTuber may also sell brands to create income. Some influential ones take advertising to help on expenses. Some may do consulting for fee on the side. Some may be involved with the manufacture of a new speaker.

Your favorite audio fora may take advertising for certain products and shut down discussion of competing products or negative aspects of the product.

The critical part is who do you believe? I think the answer involves reading reviews, understanding the technology, and finding which source of information matches up with your own experience and sound preferences.

Although Elliot and I differ here, I value his commentary and opinions given his length of experience in the industry.

If Tim A comments here then I place high value on his words because his writing shows a degree of thoughtfulness and experience.

If Michael Fremer gives me a suggestion on turntables then I am all ears.

If Jim Smith suggests I fire the LoKe subs into the corner of the listening room then I complain about how much they weigh and turn them around.

We all are on this journey together and I believe the real value of the journey is keeping an active mind, interacting with friends, and enjoying the final result.

 

[Joe Whip]

I don’t know how things work in audio with comped press junkets. I know how things are done by some car stuff with EVs. There is a you tuber E for Electric who used to get flown around by car companies coming out with EVs. He got an ID4 from VW. After owning it and driving it for awhile, he published a negative review of his experiences and the free flights, hotels and even invites to their events was shut down. This is my concern about any of these press junkets in any area. It is too easy to influence reviews and press coverage with them, even with the best intentions in mind. That is just how people function.