"Long-Term Equipment Loans: A Win-Win for Everyone" by Robert Harley, The Absolute Sound

[Lee]

One more thought.

One reason the business model of high end audio is this way is that a Consumer Reports model where subscription fess fund everything simply doesn’t work. There are just not enough subscribers to cover all the costs. Moreover, audio quality cannot be definitively measured 100% so there has to be a subjective element.

 

[mtemur]

Yep, that’s standard across electronics and speakers.

Then there is nothing more I can say.

 

[Al M.]

One more thought.

One reason the business model of high end audio is this way is that a Consumer Reports model where subscription fess fund everything simply doesn’t work. There are just not enough subscribers to cover all the costs. Moreover, audio quality cannot be definitively measured 100% so there has to be a subjective element.

As to the last sentence of your post:

1) I agree that this emphasizes a fundamental difference with reviews in Consumer Reports that makes comparisons with that publication basically impossible.

2) That is why you never should buy audio gear that you haven't heard yourself in an extensive auditioning *).

Unless it is from a brand you already trust, it is cheap enough for the risk, or there is a reasonable return policy -- or a combination of these.

__________________

*) In person, not via YouTube video. Can't believe that I even have to emphasize the difference in these insane times.

 

[Ron Resnick]

It sounds like even the YouTube guys like the Audiophile Junkie and Jay from Jay’s Audio Lab also got the all expenses paid trip to Magico to promote the M9 and the Magico brand. . . . The influencing powers of free gifts & loaners are hard to overcome . . .

+1

 

[Ron Resnick]

PTP like in any other business on this planet

Even the record business sought to stamp out pay-to-play decades ago.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I don’t know how things work in audio with comped press junkets. I know how things are done by some car stuff with EVs. There is a you tuber E for Electric who used to get flown around by car companies coming out with EVs. He got an ID4 from VW. After owning it and driving it for awhile, he published a negative review of his experiences and the free flights, hotels and even invites to their events was shut down. This is my concern about any of these press junkets in any area. It is too easy to influence reviews and press coverage with them, even with the best intentions in mind. That is just how people function.

Given the frailties of human nature -- both conscious and subconscious -- this is precisely why many industries adopt best practices regimes.

 

[Another Johnson]

This is part of an email that arrived here this morning. Adds fuel to the fire.
***********

"It’s here and it’s fantastic," writes Jeff Dorgay in his in-depth review.​

Back in 2005, a new audio reviewer at The Absolute Sound received his first assignment. He was to cover an NAD integrated amp, but that fell through, so he got to write about the new PrimaLuna ProLogue One tube integrated amp.

"The review was a success," wrote Jeff Dorgay 20 years later, "cementing the PrimaLuna brand and my audio reviewing career – though I didn’t know it quite yet."

Jeff, the newbie reviewer, went on to found TONE Publications, raising the bar for hi-fi journalism with its exquisitely photographed products, in-depth reviews, and lifestyle coverage. He bought his review sample of the ProLogue One, which has famously stayed with him for nearly 20 years. As the founder of TONE, Jeff can get his hands on pretty much any audio gear he wants to, whether for long-term loans or at industry pricing and yet he has held onto his PrimaLuna amp, noting how even in 2005 and at $1,905, it was "insanely inexpensive" for an amp of its quality.

As good as they were, PrimaLuna amps have become ever better, and Jeff now uses a pair of PrimaLuna EVO 400 monoblocks as reference amplifiers. All this is to say when Jeff gets his hands on something new from PrimaLuna, he has extremely high expectations because he's never been let down.

"A Master of Rendering Three-Dimensional Space"​

Jeff Dorgay and Chris Harr put the PrimaLuna EVO 100 Phonostage through a mind-boggling variety of phono situations, finding out how far they could push the unit.

They praise its warm, organic sound and note how it remains unflustered even during complex pieces. As Jeff points out, while $4,000 is no longer crazy money for a phonostage, it's still a considerable outlay, and yet, he considers the EVO Phono "more than worthy of an Exceptional Value Award for 2023."

Between Jeff and Chris, they are sure to have covered a table, cartridge, and amp combination that will give you a good idea of how the EVO 100 will work for you.

 

[Googaliser]

I think a simple step in the right direction would be requiring 'Reviewers' (in all the shapes and forms that exist - including here on WTBF) to disclose the terms on which they acquire and exit the gear they own/review. Full disclosure - upfront. Until that point in time - I will remain super cynical!

The difference between 'Industry Pricing' and 'long-term loans' - was moot for high-end gear until recently, in my opinion - just the cost of capital give or take and how well healed the reviewer is/was in order to fund the working capital. Interest rates and the upward march in prices of summit gear will no doubt put pressure on this equilibrium for some.

 

[tima]

Typical accommodation is 50-55% off retail.

My experience shows typical accommodation is 45-55% of msrp, trending toward less discount; often it is the same as what a dealer pays. If the product comes through a dealer it can be less (30--40%) as the dealer wants a cut. Many/most manufacturers and/or publications require a 2-3 year ownership commitment and some require first rights on repurchase at current used prices. There are well established manufacturers who will not sell on accommodation but will give long term loans.

None of that is unique to reviewers but is typical for any 'industry participant'.

Among the three publications for whom I have written as well as the manufacturers whose products I have covered, there is a high degree of sensitivity about the 'optics' of accommodation pricing.

What we've seen recently is an attempt by some individuals who are not associated to the industry or to any publication to posture themselves as "influencers". They will claim their ability to promote products and influence buyers, generally as members of audio forums (including this one.) Unlike industry members, the influencer is accountable to no one but himself. Such will shop top brand manufacturers for price (sometimes asking for less than an accommodation price), and own product from whomever gives them the best deal. Although generally well known manufacturers have been less than enthusiastic, some see value in this mode of advertising and promotion.

 

[Googaliser]

What we've seen recently is an attempt by some individuals who are not associated to the industry or to any publication to posture themselves as "influencers". They will claim their ability to promote products and influence buyers, generally as members of audio forums (including this one.) Unlike industry members, the influencer is accountable to no one but himself. Such will shop top brand manufacturers for price (sometimes asking for less than an accommodation price), and own product from whomever gives them the best deal. Although generally well known manufacturers have been less than enthusiastic, some see value in this mode of advertising and promotion.

This. The "influencer" - regular seeming enthusiast - but actually a shill. More likely to seem genuine and relatable than a 'reviewer' in some people's eyes. Stealth marketing...

 

[andromedaaudio]

In my mind that’s quite different than a private prepaid first class ticket to Europe , prepaid hotels, prepaid meals in exchange or as part of a review.

Absolutely , even most dealer shows serve some free food / drinks , a standard issue given to attendants
A manufacturer arranging transport and serving some free food / drinks is not really different .

@ So Lee you basically admit " a first class ticket to Europe , prepaid hotels, prepaid meals " is part of a " unbiased " review in certain cases .

 

[Elliot G.]

Among the three publications for whom I have written as well as the manufacturers whose products I have covered, there is a high degree of sensitivity about the 'optics' of accommodation pricing.

What we've seen recently is an attempt by some individuals who are not associated to the industry or to any publication to posture themselves as "influencers". They will claim their ability to promote products and influence buyers, generally as members of audio forums (including this one.) Unlike industry members, the influencer is accountable to no one but himself. Such will shop top brand manufacturers for price (sometimes asking for less than an accommodation price), and own product from whomever gives them the best deal. Although generally well known manufacturers have been less than enthusiastic, some see value in this mode of advertising and promotio

I'm not sure what influencers you are talking about however I for one have no issue of someone buying the gear and expressing his or her opinions of said gear. I find the whole long term loan and "industry discounts to the press" kind of odorous and it is definelty not standardized or controlled anywhere. My father taught me to do my research on from whom to buy rather than on what to buy. I still follow this particularly on things I don't know much about.

I personally know of people who are reviewers getting far larger discounts. I know of Industry people being treated to trips, dinners and all kinds of perks. The fact that reviewers may not be able to afford the gear to me only makes the perk much more valuable and important.
Just for shits a giggles the influencer world is far larger with more more groth potential than the magazines which have peaked a long time ago . If one takes the comments here on WBF the majority of people don;'t seem to trust the magazines or value the reviews very much. This comes from my observations here rather than an opinion. If I could hire an infleuncer that would help my sales I would and I will tell you so would every other company.
I am certainly not accsuing any one of foul play but that is not saying that it does not or can not exist.
My company has decided to spend less and engfage less the magazines and the audio shows. The redundancy and the lack of ROI speaks loudly and clearly. I have become freindly with one influencer and what he buys gear for and from whom he buys it is rather interesting. IMO blaiming the buyer for what he sellers are willing to do is ludicris. There are companies doing this and in doing this circumventing thier opwn dealer networks. That stinks but it is reality.
Let's face the facts the dealer network and the magazine positions within the Industry has changed and changed significantly. I personally dont believe this is for the best nor that it serves the public in the best way however these are the facts and I and everyone else has to deal with it,

I have learned in life that 1). Money talks
2). Where there is smoke there is fire
3). He who protests to much.....

 

[tima]

I'm not sure what influencers you are talking about however I for one have no issue of someone buying the gear and expressing his or her opinions of said gear.

[

Maybe you didn't read what I wrote:

What we've seen recently is an attempt by some individuals who are not associated to the industry or to any publication to posture themselves as "influencers". They will claim their ability to promote products and influence buyers, generally as members of audio forums (including this one.) Unlike industry members, the influencer is accountable to no one but himself. Such will shop top brand manufacturers for price (sometimes asking for less than an accommodation price), and own product from whomever gives them the best deal. Although generally well known manufacturers have been less than enthusiastic, some see value in this mode of advertising and promotion.

Would you sell a set of speakers at your cost to someone who told you they are influential?

 

[KeithR]

It sounds like even the YouTube guys like the Audiophile Junkie and Jay from Jay’s Audio Lab also got the all expenses paid trip to Magico to promote the M9 and the Magico brand. What happened to unbiased and independent reporting? Is it all gone for good? The influencing powers of free gifts & loaners are hard to overcome and the entire industry is now driven by the pay to play spirit and practice.

I mean, they just even hired Jeff Fritz. It’s all a blur now

 

[KeithR]

A responsible industry collectively could agree on an accepted industry practice for the maximum duration of a component loan. I propose one (1) year. One year is a long time.

But, as with the negotiation and enactment of legislation, large manufacturers and senior reviewers who currently hold expensive components subject to no return date will lobby for a longer duration. Their opening negotiating position probably will start at five years. Maybe, after the sausage is cooked, we end up at 18 months.

The problem is that indefinite long-term "loans" benefit large manufacturers who can afford to have a high value product parked at a reviewer's house indefinitely, and enjoy the free publicity from having their components as permanent fixtures on the reviewers "associated components" list. Senior reviewers at the magazines (Jonathan and Robert, this means you) will resist strenuously having to disgorge and return millions of dollars of equipment they enjoy and which they could not otherwise afford.

There would be plenty of resistance and complaining, but if such a practice were widely adopted and implemented we all would enjoy a healthier and fairer and more intellectually honest industry.

I concur and suggested one year earlier in the thread.

with the additional caveat that all loans be disclosed on each magazines website for full transparency.

 

[Elliot G.]

[

Maybe you didn't read what I wrote:



Would you sell a set of speakers at your cost to someone who told you they are influential?

if that was the only characteristic described I would just laugh and no of course not. In business when you do something it is ususally because you get something in return. So why would I give someone that I have no idea what they bring some special treatment. If however this influencer can bring me clients that want to purchase from me then of course I would consider some business arrangement.
If you are saying that some companies are silly, foolish and desperate that I can fully argeee with you because they are.
I would say as well that giving hundereds of thousands of dollars of gear to reviewers probably is worth the effort for some companies as well.
Dont you think that they believe they have power or influence by doing that? Or do you believe they want to be nice? is that their motivation?
I do have a few briidges that I have priced reduced for immediate sale LOL

 

[Elliot G.]

t sounds like even the YouTube guys like the Audiophile Junkie and Jay from Jay’s Audio Lab also got the all expenses paid trip to Magico to promote the M9 and the Magico brand. What happened to unbiased and independent reporting? Is it all gone for good? The influencing powers of free gifts & loaners are hard to overcome and the entire industry is now driven by the pay to play spirit and practice.

Carlos,
I think there is a distinction here. Peter Breuninger made aliving by making videos for companies to use promotionally.
I dont believe paying someone for thier efforts to do a factory tour and show how product is produced is bad IF they say they aer being paid to do the work, If I asked you to work I would be willing to pay you. If we know that the producer of the content is being paid then we can look at it under those circumstances.
I am willing to pay someone to produce video content for my business but there is no pretense that this was not for promotional purposes and NOT a formal review.
I think their is an audience that wants to see how and where their gear is produced, and perhaps this adds value to thier purchase or desire to purchase.
I do realize there is a line here and the consumer of the content needs details to understand how to interpret the content.

 

[Joe Whip]

My issue is when folks are paid to do a video by a manufacturer and that is not disclosed with a disclaimer. At this point I just assume that the video is paid for.

 

[Elliot G.]

My issue is when folks are paid to do a video by a manufacturer and that is not disclosed with a disclaimer. At this point I just assume that the video is paid for.

fair point and I agree that people should know and this is fair game to ask the question. Magico announced they hired Jeff Fritz, Jay said he was reimbursed by Magico others I can't speak for but everyone knew what Peter B's business was. I dont believe those were secrets.

I do think the are other content creators that are in that "grey " area and with them the buyers should be ware.
There are some real characters out there.
Just my one thought
There is no free lunch and marketing/advertisingand the review process has become intermixed. I don't think this was the goal but it has.
Once money is introduced everyone needs to be aware and make sure they understand what they they are watching or reading.
IMO there are many unqualified content creators, some that extremely opininated with little fact, some harmful and angry, some naive and lack experience and education. THis IMO goes accross the entire spectrum from print to video and beyond.
THis is the world we live in today on almost every subject. All this content is not created equally and by real experts.
Be careful, be vigilant and try to be smart.

 

[Elliot G.]