LP vs. digital from a price perspective?

[Shaffer]

I'd like at least some meat on the bones for why what you quoted doesn't make sense to you. Then perhaps I can explain where you're making an error of interpretation. How does that sound?

Now you want to throw the ball in my court and have me prove a negative. Do they have schools where you live?

 

[rbbert]

I'm a 'vinylista'...at home I listen to vinyl 99+% of the time but I have to agree with the OP's thesis.

When people ask, I tell them that if you have less than $5k to spend on a source, go with digital.

$5-$10 is a push for sound quality, especially factoring in the costs of extra cables and a quality phono preamp.

Above $10k, you should be able to get better sound quality from vinyl and at the extreme fringe, it's really no contest, analog is better....

But (and there's always a but), that's if you have the patience to do a quality set up (many ?most? expensive analog systems are not well set up) and are willing to spend the money to get quality software. These caveats should probably give significant pause to the vast majority of folks contemplating a greater than $5k expenditure.

Based on this response, I would not characterize you as a "vinylista"

 

[opus111]

Now you want to throw the ball in my court and have me prove a negative.

Stawman.

Do they have schools where you live?

Yes but they're all in a foreign language.

 

[rbbert]

I read your first original post very clearly, and it was perfect. ...The reason why I decided to post in your thread. :b

* If others are seeing (reading) things that aren't there, that's their problem; not yours, and certainly neither mine.

I was merely clarifying my use of median rather than average, and why. Your post expanded on it nicely.

 

[rbbert]

Your preference is not the issue, even though each and every one of your threads seems to hinge on a strawman argument asserting the opposite. It's as if you want folks to tell you that your system sucks. Like what you like, it's not as anyone really cares and you know that. That seems to be the problem from your end - a lack of attention. This is why you begin introducing inflammatory language into your posts, in effect trolling other for a reply. It is what it is.

What a shame...
You must still be smarting from my criticism of your punk rock list in the classic rock topic??

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I'm not sure what you mean here - I don't listen to data.

data = more musically significant information and more musical flow and dynamics.

Refresh my memory please as to what 'top flight redbook' incarnates as for you. By which I mean please give example converters/players.

please explain 'incarnates'?

my current digital player/dac is the Playback Designs MPS-5.

i have about 4k to 5k silver discs as well as about 5 terabytes of redbook, PCM hirez of all levels, dsd and 2xdsd on my server which i play over USB into the Playback Designs.

For me, base level digital would be iPod - the difference between that and what I'm listening to right now is massive. And my DAC's a very cheap DIY one as you're probably aware

i don't listen to ipod music or anything less than redbook.....unless sports talk radio is not available in my car and i do XM/Sirius sat radio.

i'm not questioning that you have very high level redbook playback performance.

Elucidate please on what digital you had in your rig.

As for my first sentence, I have no idea what you mean by 'more data'. Have you listened to a decent DIY NOS DAC incidentally?

I've listened to the Audio Note dacs a number of times at shows which i believe are NOS. i think they do sound quite nice and somewhat less processed. however; they don't sound appreciably better than other high level redbook sources. however, i would say that i prefer the Audio Note redbook performance to most other dacs as they sound more robust. i prefer the Playback Designs redbook performance to the Audio Note dac as it's even more like my analog.

i would also say that if we had a collection of the high quality redbook dacs in the same system they would mostly sound more similar than different. and my opinion is that is because there is only so much information to use from the format.

again, in case i've not been clear......i consider redbook to sound quite good and have no problem with it until you start comparing it higher rez digital and analog.

 

[JackD201]

Ah that's your style Bob For me, tact is something you did in a small dinghy when the wind was against you...

Goes to show what I know about boats. I always thought a dinghy was either rowed or had an outboard.

In my opinion a dinky CD player will beat a crappy table hands down. Hmmm. Example of a crappy table..........I think the entry level Goldring is crappy. Reminds me of the rack tables with the wow and flutter and high feedback. Then there are the crappy carts with generic MM styli that come from who-know's-where. I'm talking about the tables/arm/carts that even the most seasoned vinyl user can't get to run properly without modifications because they are a) noisy b) have poor speed stability because of belts made of vermicelli c) have arm's whose only adjustable feature is VTF. You can just imagine the quality of LPs that will see play on these. Even if they were good to begin with, they'd be trash in no time. In retrospect, this is the kind of vinyl playback that was enjoyed, or not, by the general population. No wonder then that cassette tape took over and later, CD took of so quickly and dominantly.

Things get interesting for analog when 4 things happen. Speed is stable, the table is quiet, the arm and cartridge tracks well because it was set up properly and the LPs themselves are quiet and physically clean. Low wow and flutter, low noise floor, because the record is good hardly any ticks and pops some none at all. That's when one sees the real potential of the medium and exposes the problems with digital.

 

[Shaffer]

Stawman.

You asked me to prove what doesn't make sense about your nonsensical response. "Doesn't" is a negative, making the whole shebang logically impossible. That's not a strawman; it's the reality posted just inches above on this page.

BTW, your post is yet another, "I know you are, but what am I?" To save on time, please allow me to reintroduce a Usenet acronym - IKYABWAI. Saves on typing.

Yes but they're all in a foreign language.

Does an equivalent to the word 'logic" exist in your native tongue?

 

[Shaffer]

What a shame...
You must still be smarting from my criticism of your punk rock list in the classic rock topic??

Yes, that it. It's all because you like Chicago and I don't. Unreal.

 

[mep]

Sometimes when you believe in something to your very core, it's hard to give up those beliefs and let anything else in that doesn't fit your belief system. I was very guilty of that in the past. If the electronics didn't contain tubes, it couldn't be worth a damn. If the system didn't have analog as a source, it wasn't worth a damn. Those were my hardcore beliefs. I still believe that analog including tape and LPs are superior to digital at both levels I hear digital and analog. My system is there for all to see in my profile. I obviously have way more invested in my analog sources than my digital sources. Having said that, I love the Mytek Stereo 192 DAC and my laptop server procured and setup according to Gary's instructions. That fact that I can sit and listen to my server for hours says everything about what I think of the quality. I still think that DSD sounds the most like analog and I enjoy it the most.

If the basic premise of this thread is that it is much easier and cheaper to setup a full range digital front end than a vinyl rig, it's hard to argue with that. It's true. The rewards of setting up a good vinyl rig are worth it though in my opinion.

 

[opus111]

Does an equivalent to the word 'logic" exist in your native tongue?

That would be your problem then - thinking that logic can take the place of reason

 

[JackD201]

I read the original thread again in more detail. In my opinion something like an SL-1200 with an Ortofon OM40 and a basic MM phonostage would not compare favorably with an AMR-777. You'd have to bring more to the table, pun intended.

 

[Shaffer]

That would be your problem then - thinking that logic can take the place of reason

Seems like we finally found a common ground. As English is not your first language, I, in turn, am not fluent in Gibberish.

 

[JackD201]

Having fun gentlemen? You know how things work. No personal attacks please.

 

[opus111]

data = more musically significant information and more musical flow and dynamics.

OK - then maybe I'm interpreting 'data' too pedantically but LP's don't have it because they're analog systems. Only digital has data.

please explain 'incarnates'?

Just my quirky terminology - an incarnation is a 'becoming flesh' of something incorporeal. I probably should have used 'instantiation' - meaning turn the concept into an illustrative example.

my current digital player/dac is the Playback Designs MPS-5.

Ah yes, my memory is flakey I was previously aware of this. And probably also have said before that I don't consider this in any way a transparent means of reproducing RBCD.

i have about 4k to 5k silver discs as well as about 5 terabytes of redbook, PCM hirez of all levels, dsd and 2xdsd on my server which i play over USB into the Playback Designs.

Impressive quantities of data for sure - so why are you still playing around in the shallow end for RBCD D/A conversion? Is it because DSD and hires take priority and you only want to have one DAC?

I've listened to the Audio Note dacs a number of times at shows which i believe are NOS. i think they do sound quite nice and somewhat less processed.

I haven't heard them myself but I would concur. The one's I've looked into (pics online) have used an AD1865 multibit DAC. However I haven't seen evidence of them fixing up NOS's two main foibles, droop and images. Both of which detract from the sonic experience for me. So I'd maintain you've not heard SOTA NOS yet.

however; they don't sound appreciably better than other high level redbook sources. however, i would say that i prefer the Audio Note redbook performance to most other dacs as they sound more robust. i prefer the Playback Designs redbook performance to the Audio Note dac as it's even more like my analog.

I find this last sentence quite surprising - would you explain a bit more in what respects the AN sounds less 'analog' ? I'm curious here.

again, in case i've not been clear......i consider redbook to sound quite good and have no problem with it until you start comparing it higher rez digital and analog.

I haven't made those comparisons so wouldn't offer any comment on the SQ. Just technically hires digital doesn't impress me in terms of the current implementations available. I'm not against it in principle and indeed plan to design a DAC for it at some point.

 

[opus111]

As English is not your first language, I, in turn, am not fluent in Gibberish.

Flawed premise, therefore conclusion unsound

 

[Shaffer]

Flawed premise, therefore conclusion unsound

No, I can say with the utmost honesty that I am not fluent in Gibberish. That's that pesky logic thing again. Aren't you getting tired of always being wrong?

[Sorry, Jack, just saw your post. I'm out.]

 

[opus111]

Aren't you getting tired of always being wrong?

Since you ask, no I'm not

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Ah yes, my memory is flakey I was previously aware of this. And probably also have said before that I don't consider this in any way a transparent means of reproducing RBCD.

so you've heard the MPS-5?

Impressive quantities of data for sure - so why are you still playing around in the shallow end for RBCD D/A conversion? Is it because DSD and hires take priority and you only want to have one DAC?

based on how the MPS-5 renders redbook compared to my vinyl and tape verses other dacs i'm happy with it.

there is some truth that redbook performance is not the main focus of my agenda with my system. OTOH i find the MPS-5 redbook performance fully satisfying.

I haven't heard them myself but I would concur. The one's I've looked into (pics online) have used an AD1865 multibit DAC. However I haven't seen evidence of them fixing up NOS's two main foibles, droop and images. Both of which detract from the sonic experience for me. So I'd maintain you've not heard SOTA NOS yet.

my room and system's strengths are soundstaging and imaging. i'm very sensitive about how sources do in these areas. i'd say the AN dacs are quite good in these areas, but not to the level of the MPS-5.

I find this last sentence quite surprising - would you explain a bit more in what respects the AN sounds less 'analog' ? I'm curious here.

the MPS-5, to my ears, goes farther to capture the fullness and energy of the music than the AN. also; i think it captures more ambient info. i hear farther into the music. these are analog characteristics which i am very familiar with.

I haven't made those comparisons so wouldn't offer any comment on the SQ. Just technically hires digital doesn't impress me in terms of the current implementations available. I'm not against it in principle and indeed plan to design a DAC for it at some point.

i'm not that impressed with hirez PCM myself. and i think redbook is closer to hirez PCM than hirez PCM is to better dsd and 2xdsd. i listen to all these formats daily in my system. they are all very good.....but vary in degrees of 'goodness'.

 

[opus111]

so you've heard the MPS-5?

No, this is going on technical descriptions I have read and also listening reports online, including the recent Stereophile review.

my room and system's strengths are soundstaging and imaging. i'm very sensitive about how sources do in these areas. i'd say the AN dacs are quite good in these areas, but not to the level of the MPS-5.

OK that's helpful, thanks. I'm also a soundstage geek but not very bothered about pin-point imaging. Dynamics, soundstage depth/bloom and accurate timbre are my 'must-haves'. I can easily imagine that the PB excels in imaging over a NOS design.

i'm not that impressed with hirez PCM myself. and i think redbook is closer to hirez PCM than hirez PCM is to better dsd and 2xdsd. i listen to all these formats daily in my system. they are all very good.....but vary in degrees of 'goodness'.

I have listening to SOTA DSD64 and DSD128 to come...