Lyra Erodion SUT
- Thread starter gian60
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The Erodion is not designed to the not so low output of the normal Atlas.
Some years ago I talked to Lyra designer Jonathan Carr and even he had not recommended the combination. Erodion was designed about 20 years ago, and matches maybe the SL versions of the actual Lyra cartridges.
Mr. Carr talked maybe a new design for the higher output of the actual normal Lyra cartridges, but as I know, there is no step in this direction...
Some years ago I talked to Lyra designer Jonathan Carr and even he had not recommended the combination. Erodion was designed about 20 years ago, and matches maybe the SL versions of the actual Lyra cartridges.
Mr. Carr talked maybe a new design for the higher output of the actual normal Lyra cartridges, but as I know, there is no step in this direction...
While the Erodion name has been around for a long time, both the contents and appearance have changed over the years.
The "red" Erodion introduced a wider-bandwidth stepup unit, along with revisions to the grounding and output loading. From this red version onwards, the Erodion shifted away from the mid-range oriented sound of a traditional stepup transformer, and became closer to a "straight wire with gain".
The more recent "black" Erodion Evo is distinguished by comparatively short (60cm) ultra-low-capacitance captive output leads, which reduce the secondary-to-primary capacitance multiplication effects that all transformer-based stepups suffer from. The sound goes in a similar direction as the red version, but with added bandwidth, resolution and impact.
As a passive stepup, the Erodion should not have any difficulty with cartridges with an internal impedance of 10 ohms or less (which covers all of our current cartridge models). However, amplifying a normal Atlas (0.56mV) by the 26dB (20x) gain of the Erodion (0.56mV x 20 = 11.2mV) may overload some phono stages, especially on LP scratches, which being physical damage applied after the LP was cut, can have far greater amplitude than any of the recorded content.
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?25060-Atlas-and-Atlas-Sl-with-Erodion-Evo-Lyra-sut
The "red" Erodion introduced a wider-bandwidth stepup unit, along with revisions to the grounding and output loading. From this red version onwards, the Erodion shifted away from the mid-range oriented sound of a traditional stepup transformer, and became closer to a "straight wire with gain".
The more recent "black" Erodion Evo is distinguished by comparatively short (60cm) ultra-low-capacitance captive output leads, which reduce the secondary-to-primary capacitance multiplication effects that all transformer-based stepups suffer from. The sound goes in a similar direction as the red version, but with added bandwidth, resolution and impact.
As a passive stepup, the Erodion should not have any difficulty with cartridges with an internal impedance of 10 ohms or less (which covers all of our current cartridge models). However, amplifying a normal Atlas (0.56mV) by the 26dB (20x) gain of the Erodion (0.56mV x 20 = 11.2mV) may overload some phono stages, especially on LP scratches, which being physical damage applied after the LP was cut, can have far greater amplitude than any of the recorded content.
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?25060-Atlas-and-Atlas-Sl-with-Erodion-Evo-Lyra-sut
Dear jcarr,
I have both your Atlas SL and Etna Mono which I am using with the EMT Jpa66 phono. I don’t have a mm cart and don’t want to leave the mm input unused since I have quite a few arms carts. I have an Airtight top SUT. Using it I gain some and lose some. My question is with your Evo SUT, would I retain all the goodness when using this SUT with the AtlasSL nad Etna Mono?
Kind regards,
Tang
Tango, in my opinion your first priority should be to extract more of the performance that the AirTight SUT is potentially capable of.
I suggest starting by placing the AirTight as close to your JPA66 as possible, to determine how short of an interconnect cable you need. Next you can obtain a very low-capacitance interconnect cable (or have one made), shorten it as much as allowable, and use that to connect the outputs of the AirTight to the MM inputs of the JPA66.
Since you will not be using the MM inputs with an MM or MI cartridge, a further option would be to have a technician disconnect any "load capacitance" which is almost certainly present in the JPA66's MM input circuitry.
These steps will reduce the amount of capacitance that gets reflected back to the cartridge, which should benefit the sound.
The rationale is as follows: Any capacitances on the SUT primary side are seen by the cartridge as-is, but any capacitances on the SUT secondary side are seen by the cartridge as being multiplied by the square of the SUT's primary-to-secondary turns ratio. IOW, 100pF on the SUT primary side is 100pF, but 100pF on the secondary side will be effectively multiplied by 100 times (if the SUT has a gain of 20dB), and by 400 times if the SUT has a gain of 26dB.
Therefore, SUTs should ideally be in the same chassis as the phono stage, to minimize the effect of any capacitances that may be present between the SUT secondary windings and the phono stage input.
If this is not practical, the next best option would be to configure the SUT output as a captive lead made from low-capacitance cable and kept as short as possible (which is how Lyra's Erodion Evo SUT is made).
And if even this is out of reach, at least the SUT output can be connected to the phono stage with low-capacitance cable and/or kept as short as feasible.
If you do this, please post your results
.
I suggest starting by placing the AirTight as close to your JPA66 as possible, to determine how short of an interconnect cable you need. Next you can obtain a very low-capacitance interconnect cable (or have one made), shorten it as much as allowable, and use that to connect the outputs of the AirTight to the MM inputs of the JPA66.
Since you will not be using the MM inputs with an MM or MI cartridge, a further option would be to have a technician disconnect any "load capacitance" which is almost certainly present in the JPA66's MM input circuitry.
These steps will reduce the amount of capacitance that gets reflected back to the cartridge, which should benefit the sound.
The rationale is as follows: Any capacitances on the SUT primary side are seen by the cartridge as-is, but any capacitances on the SUT secondary side are seen by the cartridge as being multiplied by the square of the SUT's primary-to-secondary turns ratio. IOW, 100pF on the SUT primary side is 100pF, but 100pF on the secondary side will be effectively multiplied by 100 times (if the SUT has a gain of 20dB), and by 400 times if the SUT has a gain of 26dB.
Therefore, SUTs should ideally be in the same chassis as the phono stage, to minimize the effect of any capacitances that may be present between the SUT secondary windings and the phono stage input.
If this is not practical, the next best option would be to configure the SUT output as a captive lead made from low-capacitance cable and kept as short as possible (which is how Lyra's Erodion Evo SUT is made).
And if even this is out of reach, at least the SUT output can be connected to the phono stage with low-capacitance cable and/or kept as short as feasible.
If you do this, please post your results
.
Tang. Jonathon is the ultimate gentleman.
Now, do what Jon said and buy his Lyra SUT - then tell us what works best
You are after all our formula one test driver here.One my friend has Atlas and Erodion red and prefer listen with erodion
Other friend has Atlas and bought Erodion Evo
I have Atlas sl and I use in current with my P1 and is a perfect match
But when I tried Erodion Evo with mm input of my CH,I found more stage,more body and more dynamic,was a fantastic sound,only very little less transparent on high,but this is normal
Also in my friend system with Atlas ,P1 and Erodion Evo listen same difference like in my home
Erodion Evo is perfect both with Atlas and Atlas sl like compatibility
Other friend has Atlas and bought Erodion Evo
I have Atlas sl and I use in current with my P1 and is a perfect match
But when I tried Erodion Evo with mm input of my CH,I found more stage,more body and more dynamic,was a fantastic sound,only very little less transparent on high,but this is normal
Also in my friend system with Atlas ,P1 and Erodion Evo listen same difference like in my home
Erodion Evo is perfect both with Atlas and Atlas sl like compatibility
Tang. Jonathon is the ultimate gentleman.
Now, do what Jon said and buy his Lyra SUT - then tell us what works best
+1 to all 3 statements
So, Gian, what do you prefer? I have the same P1 as you and the Atlas SL but have not tried it with a SUT.
In my system I prefer little more with erodion because I also have the speaker 3 mt from rear wall and I find Atlas little light than opus 1
With Erodion I have more body and stage
I lost a little transparency in midhigh with Erodion
So with 10 song I prefer 7 with Erodion and 3 without
If you have speaker with body and room with good bass and midbass is better without
But if you can try I suggest to try
With Erodion I have more body and stage
I lost a little transparency in midhigh with Erodion
So with 10 song I prefer 7 with Erodion and 3 without
If you have speaker with body and room with good bass and midbass is better without
But if you can try I suggest to try
Thanks for the response. I also have my speakers 3 meters from the rear wall and find the Atlas a little light.
I use the Erodion Red with my Atlas and Ypsilon phono. I tried the Ypsilon SUT with the Atlas and preferred the Erodion, the sound is "sweeter" with better ambience.
Thank you for your input Jonathan.
Could you please tell me what would be the load on my Atlas when connected to the red Erodion (approx 3yr vintage) + Ypsilon VPS-100 phono stage which has an input of 47K ohm?
Would I be right in assuming the loading would be the same for any cartridge when using the Erodion.
Could you please tell me what would be the load on my Atlas when connected to the red Erodion (approx 3yr vintage) + Ypsilon VPS-100 phono stage which has an input of 47K ohm?
Would I be right in assuming the loading would be the same for any cartridge when using the Erodion.
Hi Tom: The red Erodion already has an internal load on the secondaries of around 35kohm, if I recall correctly. Therefore, if the MM phono stage has an input termination of 47kohm, the parallel value is 20060 ohms. And if we divide 18312 by the square of the Erodion's 20x primary-secondary winding ratio, we get just over 50ohms reflected back to the cartridge.
Note that the internal load of the Erodion was determined empirically by listening tests into a conventional MM phono stage with input capacitance as well as 47kohm, rather than straight math.
If the MM phono stage allowed for its input capacitance to be disabled when using an SUT (which would be the more correct way), the internal secondary load of the Erodion could be made less heavy, and much less capacitance would reflected back through the primary windings, both of which would impose a less constraining load on the cartridge.
These issues are all interlinked; it doesn't make sense to speak of specific values in isolation, without considering the other parameters of the operating environment.
Correct. The Erodion should be well-suited for any cartridge with an internal impedance of 10 ohms or less.
Can someone tell me where the latest Erodion SUT is available in the US? I've emailed the company who I think is the US distributor (lyra@audioquest.com) and haven't heard anything yet...
As an aside, why is it that there's so little information to be found on the Erodion? It's very difficult to find it as a listed Lyra product....
As an aside, why is it that there's so little information to be found on the Erodion? It's very difficult to find it as a listed Lyra product....
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