Magico introduced the Q series subwoofers

[Mike Lavigne]

I guess I will forever be in the dark Mike as I remain eternally content with mine.

I do agree however with your last statement. It took me close to 3 months to get mine integrated in my room.

your f113's sound great in your system when I heard it in July. nothing to worry about. but there are faster subwoofers which might contribute more. and lets say your main speakers did not go as low as your X-2's. so the sub needed to be a bigger part of the whole. in that case the speed of the subwoofer would be more exposed to it's shortcomings. and in that case as you stepped up to better and better subs you would hear the benefits. and I think this is more what these higher performance subwoofers are intended for. systems with Q1's or Q3's where integration with a pair of f113's or similar does not 'quite' work ideally.

 

[microstrip]

(...) but until one has the opportunity to hear a higher performance XXX one won't know what they are missing.

Mike,

Unfortunately it seems it is a rule in high-end. See the recent review of Jeff Fritz of the Gryphon Mephisto amplifier, as pointed by Lloyd in another thread. He was happy with the Ayre MX-R until he listened to the Mephisto. http://ultraaudio.com/index.php/twbas-menu/399-sonic-sorcery-gryphon-audio-designs-mephisto-stereo-amplifier

 

[microstrip]

(...) The reason being that I have lived with semi-active speakers from Audio Physic pair with their subwoofers for a long time before I decided to jump over to the Magico Q7. (...)

The Kronos?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike,

Unfortunately it seems it is a rule in high-end. See the recent review of Jeff Fritz of the Gryphon Mephisto amplifier, as pointed by Lloyd in another thread. He was happy with the Ayre MX-R until he listened to the Mephisto. http://ultraaudio.com/index.php/twbas-menu/399-sonic-sorcery-gryphon-audio-designs-mephisto-stereo-amplifier

we can all argue on what we like in the mid and high frequencies. it is a matter of taste, not so much physics. there are many different valid paths.

OTOH when it comes to true reproduction of complete full frequencies of deep bass and complete integration we come to an area where every opinion gets exposed and every step taken is audible and valuable. and one's reference gets re-calibrated regularly.

the more displacement, precision and horsepower one has the closer one gets to the ideal.

 

[Roysen]

The Kronos?

I had AP Cerubin, AP Kronos + 2x AP Minos and AP Medea (semi active version) + 2x AP Rhea.

 

[FrantzM]

I have two F113. Probably the best "cheap" sub on the market. They are good enough for home theater, but yes, they are too weak to pair with my Q1. I tried and did lose transparency.
And it is not a problem with bass response of my room, which is amazing. If I measure the sub (of course without frequency correction) at my listening position, this is what I get: +-3dB down to 20Hz. If I move the listening position 1 or 2 meters, same results (this is because of the numerous Helmholtz resonators I have built in, room nodes are gone).
View attachment 11563

Would two Q-sub fit the bill? I don't know, but I assume that if Alon Wolf finally decides to launch a sub, it really must be something special. The 1% THD at 136db for the Qsub-18 are crazy. Imagine putting two Qsub-18 in a room, in term of membrane surface, it is equivalent to 8 of my F113: scary!
I will probably never know because the Q1 is replaced by my Ultimate and the Ultimate don't need subs.
By the way, the Qsub-15 is using the same drivers as the bass drivers in my Ultimate. Actually this driver was originally developed for the Ultimate 3, so yes, it is something really special.

Now we are approaching a delicate issue... In my experience, subs work better with Full range or close-to-full-range mains... mini-monitors with subs always sound to me as ..well.. mini-monitors with subs. There is more than a loss of transparency, there is a discontinuity in the response of the system .. Consistent in my experience. I tend not to favor mini-monitors for that reason although I am using a pair at the moment and don't think I will use them with subs, that will be for the full ranges (Kef Blades, Magnepan 3.7 or Magico Q3 in alphabetical order ) I am aiming at .. Counterintuitive maybe but there is some physics in there. I would like to discuss this in a different thread, maybe ...
As for the notion of the F113 being slow ... Please let's not go there, let's try to put that notion of "slow" subwoofer to rest. There is however poor or bad integration of a given subs with mains ina given room, in the case of the F113 judicious use of Eq and phase control might have helped . The F113 is a superb subwoofer in the right room, for larger rooms JL Audio makes larger subs of extremely high quality. Also I never said that integration of subs was easy or simple , it takes a long time and a lot of work... Given time one and additional equipment (EQ preferably of the digital sort) the F113 (not one, at least two, this is true for any subwoofer as mentioned by many) will integrate with any speakers.

back to the Magico sub, I would like to see/know how the 136 dB at <1% was tested..

 

[Roysen]

Now we are approaching a delicate issue... In my experience, subs work better with Full range or close-to-full-range mains... mini-monitors with subs always sound to me as ..well.. mini-monitors with subs. There is more than a loss of transparency, there is a discontinuity in the response of the system .. Consistent in my experience. I tend not to favor mini-monitors for that reason although I am using a pair at the moment and don't think I will use them with subs, that will be for the full ranges (Kef Blades, Magnepan 3.7 or Magico Q3 in alphabetical order )

I totally agree.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Now we are approaching a delicate issue... In my experience, subs work better with Full range or close-to-full-range mains... mini-monitors with subs always sound to me as ..well.. mini-monitors with subs. There is more than a loss of transparency, there is a discontinuity in the response of the system .. Consistent in my experience. I tend not to favor mini-monitors for that reason although I am using a pair at the moment and don't think I will use them with subs, that will be for the full ranges (Kef Blades, Magnepan 3.7 or Magico Q3 in alphabetical order ) I am aiming at .. Counterintuitive maybe but there is some physics in there. I would like to discuss this in a different thread, maybe ...
As for the notion of the F113 being slow ... Please let's not go there, let's try to put that notion of "slow" subwoofer to rest. There is however poor or bad integration of a given subs with mains ina given room, in the case of the F113 judicious use of Eq and phase control might have helped . The F113 is a superb subwoofer in the right room, for larger rooms JL Audio makes larger subs of extremely high quality. Also I never said that integration of subs was easy or simple , it takes a long time and a lot of work... Given time one and additional equipment (EQ preferably of the digital sort) the F113 (not one, at least two, this is true for any subwoofer as mentioned by many) will integrate with any speakers.

back to the Magico sub, I would like to see/know how the 136 dB at <1% was tested..

just compare the f113 to the f112 or f212; both those smaller driver subs have a 'lighter touch'.......slightly more precision.....it's a small thing but important for music integration.

less precise or less fast does not = slow; but relatively it is slower. it does not stop and start with quite as much agility.

 

[microstrip]

I had AP Cerubin, AP Kronos + 2x AP Minos and AP Medea (semi active version) + 2x AP Rhea.

I am still looking for information about the AP Kronos crossover modification. I still regret having sold them, and probably the good friend of mine who got them would like to carry it.

 

[Steve Williams]

just compare the f113 to the f112 or f212; both those smaller driver subs have a 'lighter touch'.......slightly more precision.....it's a small thing but important for music integration.

less precise or less fast does not = slow; but relatively it is slower. it does not stop and start with quite as much agility.

Many are saying that the technology in the F212 is actually better than the F113 although I have not compared to be able to offer a personal opnion

I must also say that my pair of Gotham subs made my XS seem broken and I sold it immediately

I also agree with Frantz WRT calling a sub slow or fast. Can someone tell me what you mean by this

 

[microstrip]

(...) Also I never said that integration of subs was easy or simple , it takes a long time and a lot of work...

We are now clearly in audiophile land ...

 

[Roysen]

I am still looking for information about the AP Kronos crossover modification. I still regret having sold them, and probably the good friend of mine who got them would like to carry it.

Well, according to Joachim Gerhard the original Kronos had a suckout at the 400Hz region resulting in a dip in the frequency response caused by a phase error when the original crossover handed the signal from the front-mounted coaxial unit to the side-mounted midrange units. What he did was to create a new simple first order crossover for the coax driver and disconnected the midrange drivers from the signal path. The midrange drivers were instead configured as slaves. The original crossover had more than 50 passive parts in the signal path while the new one had only four. The trancparency was at a completely different level and the frequency response much flatter. The dip in the frequency response can be seen in John Atkinsons test of the Kronos in Stereophile. Joachim only ever did this modification to one pair of Kronos from what I understand. I think you might have to contact him for more info and availability.

Did you ever listen to the Audio Physic Cerubin? The Kronos with and without modification sounded broken by comparison. I regret selling them.

Now back to the Magico subwoofers.

 

[andromedaaudio]

regarding subs being slow `in general ` .
in my opinion its got to do with membraneweight /total weight being displaced.
in general subs need a large stiff cone /long throw motor this all adds up as weight .
the more weight the slower the performance /more start stop time needed,but bass from large membrane basspeakers sounds also great so its a compromise in the end
displacing large amounts of air takes time and energy

 

[FrantzM]

just compare the f113 to the f112 or f212; both those smaller driver subs have a 'lighter touch'.......slightly more precision.....it's a small thing but important for music integration.

less precise or less fast does not = slow; but relatively it is slower. it does not stop and start with quite as much agility.

It doesn't work that way .. Smaller driver doesn't equate precision or acceleration... Case in point your own MM7 and the MM3 use 15 inchers. From all reports they stop on a dime ...

 

[andromedaaudio]

In that case why is a small/light high freq driver suitable for high freq and vice versa
A large 300 mm membrane bassunit will in general have serious break up above 1000 hz ,why ?.....because its slow

 

[FrantzM]

In that case why is a small/light high freq driver suitable for high freq and vice versa
A large 300 mm membrane bassunit will in general have serious break up above 1000 hz ,why ?.....because its slow

A different discussion. Your statement is incorrect...

 

[Mike Lavigne]

It doesn't work that way .. Smaller driver doesn't equate precision or acceleration... Case in point your own MM7 and the MM3 use 15 inchers. From all reports they stop on a dime ...

i agree that driver size is not the only issue. but in the case of the f113 compared directly with the f112, the f112 is slightly more precise and has less a sense of weight....i thought it had more musically controlled bass than the f113.......when i heard them both together side by side some years ago. the f113 was also good, just not as good for music.

as far as the MM3's there are 2 powered 15's, so to get a given SPL it does not need as much excursion as a single 13. but when comparing the f113's to the overall MM3 'system' there are many more variables to consider.

even when comparing an MM2 to an MM3 there is a difference in ease and precision based on twice the driver area.

and then with the MM7's you have -4- powered 15's, and also an extra -4- 11" ceramic woofers per side and you enter a territory of ease and effortlessness that is revelatory.

in general more driver area = less excursion and more linear response, but there are so many other variables that it's rarely the whole story. but it is an important part of the story most times.

 

[Bruce B]

The MM3's wouldn't work in my room until I paired them with subs.....

 

[microstrip]

It doesn't work that way .. Smaller driver doesn't equate precision or acceleration... Case in point your own MM7 and the MM3 use 15 inchers. From all reports they stop on a dime ...

No, but for equal force higher mass means less acceleration. But most probably it is not directly relevant, as debating sound quality in audio most of the times transcends basic physics interpretations -e.g. simple vectors are not enough to study plasticity and deformations. And you need these properties to relate cone size and mass.

 

[DaveyF]

Now we are approaching a delicate issue... In my experience, subs work better with Full range or close-to-full-range mains... mini-monitors with subs always sound to me as ..well.. mini-monitors with subs. There is more than a loss of transparency, there is a discontinuity in the response of the system .. Consistent in my experience. I tend not to favor mini-monitors for that reason although I am using a pair at the moment and don't think I will use them with subs, that will be for the full ranges (Kef Blades, Magnepan 3.7 or Magico Q3 in alphabetical order ) I am aiming at .. Counterintuitive maybe but there is some physics in there. I would like to discuss this in a different thread, maybe ...
As for the notion of the F113 being slow ... Please let's not go there, let's try to put that notion of "slow" subwoofer to rest. There is however poor or bad integration of a given subs with mains ina given room, in the case of the F113 judicious use of Eq and phase control might have helped . The F113 is a superb subwoofer in the right room, for larger rooms JL Audio makes larger subs of extremely high quality. Also I never said that integration of subs was easy or simple , it takes a long time and a lot of work... Given time one and additional equipment (EQ preferably of the digital sort) the F113 (not one, at least two, this is true for any subwoofer as mentioned by many) will integrate with any speakers.

back to the Magico sub, I would like to see/know how the 136 dB at <1% was tested..

Frantz, I do not agree with you that mini-monitors always have to sound like mini-monitors with subs. It is true that the blend is far more difficult to achieve, BUT with judicious care and matching, it is possible to get away from any real discontinuities. I think I have been successful in that with my SF GH's and my REL T5. What is crucial is to use a sub that is NOT too large for the room that it is being placed in, which due to the fact that MOST mini's are used in smaller rooms typically means an 8" or max a 10" sub; ( IF the room can accommodate that size, most typical US bedroom size rooms cannot, IME) and also a sub that is very fast....the smaller the driver of the sub ( I know this is a generalization, BUT mostly correct), the quicker the response time of the driver.
Another mistake that people make, IME, is that IF one is using a mini monitor and a sub in a small room, the wave length of the bass wave is going to be a MAJOR limiter to the response that the room can support. That is simple physics -- by increasing the size of the driver does NOT change that. BTW, this is true in larger rooms as well....something that i think we may need to keep in mind more than we do.