Magico Q7

[PeterA]

As far as I can tell, the Mini 2 and now the Q7 Mk2 are the only two speakers that Magico has offered with an upgrade path. Both involved drivers and crossovers.

This is in contrast to what they did with other models in the past. The Q5 slowly replaced the M5, costing less and sounding better. The Q1 replaced the Mini 2 and cost less. The S5 replaced the V3 and cost about the same and sounded a lot better. Magico has in the past replaced models with new ones that cost the same or less and sound better. This Q7 Mk2 is a different approach and I understand the reasoning behind it.

If all of the Q models get this same upgrade, Magico will sell more speakers that sound better and cost more without having to do a lot of costly retooling and major design work which would have been the case if they had instead decided to add a new M line with 3 or 4 new models based on the M Project. This move will freshen up the Q line, it should increase profits, and it will give them time to develop new speakers descended from the M if that is what they want to do.

It will be interesting to see what will happen to the value of the used Mk1 Q speakers that don't get upgraded. Discontinued Magico speakers represent outstanding values on the used market, IMO.

 

[stereo]

As far as I can tell, the Mini 2 and now the Q7 Mk2 are the only two speakers that Magico has offered with an upgrade path. Both involved drivers and crossovers.

If all of the Q models get this same upgrade, Magico will sell more speakers that sound better and cost more without having to do a lot of costly retooling and major design work which would have been the case if they had instead decided to add a new M line with 3 or 4 new models based on the M Project. This move will freshen up the Q line, it should increase profits, and it will give them time to develop new speakers descended from the M if that is what they want to do.

It will be interesting to see what will happen to the value of the used Mk1 Q speakers that don't get upgraded. Discontinued Magico speakers represent outstanding values on the used market, IMO.

I don't know if Magico will decide to launch mk2 versions for the rest of the Q range, but I doubt that the rest of the Q range will get the upgrade option for Mk1 owners
- Q5 is the oldest design, it would require significant change in case they want to upgrade it. Probably also cabinet change to improve efficiency. Any new speaker would be quite different.
- for Q1 and Q3, cost of doing an upgrade would be too high for consumers. You need to completely dismantle speaker from the back to get access to the internal faceplate. The new drivers have different footprint, so the face plates will have to be machined. Try to machine a front face plate which is already anodized, there is a high risk you damage the finish and have to rebuild from scratch a new plate... And then you need to reassemble back the full speaker and do testing again...
Bottom line, this upgrade work is not so easy- it is justified only for the Q7 as their flagship products (important it remains the best product in their line up, even after launch of Mpro).

 

[DaveyF]

I'm at a loss as to why AW is only charging $44K for the upgrade...and only $220K for the newer Q7??? His Ultimate is what... $650K and rumor has it that the new Wamm will be close to a $1M.
As I have stated before, I just don't see why they don't get real and ask $5-10M or even more....after all IF you have to have the best, then you need to be able to really pay for it.

 

[jap]

Frantz, I have a good friend who owns the M Project, and I have heard it twice. It is a fantastic speaker. Though they are not really any longer available, the price was $130K, considerably less than either the Q7 or Q7 MkII. Considering the size, form and price difference, the M represents a very good value relative to the Q7, IMO. Add considering the uniqueness and limited quantity, it should also hold its value very well, as a collector's item.

The M, though difficult to move around, is much easier to live with than the massive Q7 and it can fit in a smaller room. It is the most elegant large speaker I've ever seen. I think it is Magico's best achievement to date and I hope the form and technology finds its way into future, smaller models with curved baffles and curved side walls.

Did your "good friend" have to get his hearing aid adjusted after he got his M Projects?

 

[XV-1]

or you would be pissed if Wilson would sell you a X2 as the "best of the best".... and introduce 3mths later a XLF as the "new best of the best", without an upgrade path???

Not sure, quite a few X2 owners have not upgraded as the value equation linked to sq increase does not make sense.

Not sure why Wilson went for a Meh soft dome tweeter. Not really an upgrade imo, more a sideways move. I have heard the Alexia several times and it sounds like a Wilson speaker with a normal run of the mill soft dome. Not a patch on the Scanspeak Revelator tweeter and I am sure even further behind Magico and many others.

btw, everyone knows the Wilson speaker upgrade cycle, if you were that worried, you would put off your purchase.

Magico have surpassed Wilson in tweeter technology as well as sound enough that I will never upgrade to a new Wilson soft dome speaker. And I own Wilson

That does not excuse Magico for ripping off their existing customers and potential new customers ( including myself). makes one think twice.

 

[DaveyF]

Not sure why Wilson went for a Meh soft dome tweeter. Not really an upgrade imo, more a sideways move. I have heard the Alexia several times and it sounds like a Wilson speaker with a normal run of the mill soft dome. Not a patch on the Scanspeak Revelator tweeter and I am sure even further behind Magico and many others.

btw, everyone knows the Wilson speaker upgrade cycle, if you were that worried, you would put off your purchase.

Magico have surpassed Wilson in tweeter technology as well as sound enough that I will never upgrade to a new Wilson soft dome speaker. And I own Wilson

That does not excuse Magico for ripping off their existing customers and potential new customers ( including myself). makes one think twice.

Perhaps Wilson became aware of the dreaded "ringing" Focal tweeter and wanted to finally rectify the problem. The new Silk dome in the Wilson is IMO a far superior tweet to the older titanium Focal dome ( Wilson) or even the current Beryllium dome that Magico uses. Clearly YMMV.

 

[XV-1]

ok; lets say that instead of Maxx3's you owned the original X-2 Alexander Mk1's. you had in the last year purchased these for $125k. today they come out with Alexander Mk2's for $150k, or you can upgrade for $50k.

would you rather that they don't offer the upgrade????

of just pound sand and suffer having the old model with no recourse.

no doubt the value of your Mk1's used is much higher to a buyer knowing they can upgrade them. and likely you can work out some sort of 'deal' with your Wilson dealer who loves you on the upgrade. either way you stay a loyal Wilson customer. spend a little more money and stay current for a few more years.

and that is exactly what happened over two series of Wilson top-of-line speakers with lots of quite happy campers, and the template for Magico. the customers see that their viewpoint is considered and not just ignored.



I think it's clear there is some value in performance to the upgrade. it's also logical that the Mk2 Q7 likely does not likely cost more to build. but getting your panties in a bunch on the cost factor of products like this is a waste of energy. it's all perceived value. and if you are not a Magico fanboy then you won't ever 'get it' anyway.



products like this require a bit of lust over logic for sure.

Hi Mike

no Knickers in a knot, as I can't afford these speakers anyway, but fun to discuss this don't you think. Re Wilson example - re my response to Stereo - I would not upgrade to the Alexandria as I feel the tweeter is a sideways step - not a step forward.

Where did I say I don't think Magico or Wilson should not offer an upgrade path where and when possible. They should not shaft the existing customer for the privilage and potentially put off new customers.
For 45k you can buy a new Q3. or 2 new tweeters, mid range drivers, a tweak to the crossover and slight change to the machined front bezel for your Q7? Seriously that is a rip off in anyones language.

The price of the Mk2 should be close to the same price and charge a reasonable amount for the upgrade . If I was just to upgrade to Mk2, I could take the 20k hit to my trade in if I was saving 45k in buying the new expensive for no reason Mk2.

cj's top of line pre amp used to be the ART3. It cost 25k. the GAT came out later, sounds better and costs less - 20K. Was I upset? NO. Example here on the logic. My trade is say 10k now instead of 12.5k. But now I only need to fund the gap to 20k, not 25k or even higher if you were Magico.

I was happy that a company like cj with morals were able to produce a better product for less money and gave those savings to the customer.

I really don't get the never ending cycle where the new model needs to be 25% more expensive than the previous model - It is unsustainable imo Magico are not alone at this practice, I am just using them as an example.

But, I can't afford these 200k, 400k, 600k speakers, so what would I know

 

[rockitman]

what was the Wilson X-2 to X-2.2 upgrade cost ? It involved a complete crossover module and a few drivers....

 

[XV-1]

what was the Wilson X-2 to X-2.2 upgrade cost ? It involved a complete crossover module and a few drivers....

25k for upgrade.

23k higher cost for X-2.2 over X-2. Magico was not the first to offer these rip off upgrade costs.

http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/wilson_alexandria_x2_2.htm

 

[nirodha]

25k for upgrade.

23k higher cost for X-2.2 over X-2. Magico was not the first to offer these rip off upgrade costs.

http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/wilson_alexandria_x2_2.htm

There is a reason why an upgrade should only cost parts and about 10%: an upgrade never gives you the feeling that you have the best version available! It is always "second best". If you don't believe me try selling an original best and an upgraded best ;-) I know, I know...nobody is forcing you to take the offer but still... I am oldfashioned and believe that ethics still should have a role in business. Oh my..what did I say

 

[XV-1]

There is a reason why an upgrade should only cost parts and about 10%: an upgrade never gives you the feeling that you have the best version available! It is always "second best". If you don't believe me try selling an original best and an upgraded best ;-) I know, I know...nobody is forcing you to take the offer but still... I am oldfashioned and believe that ethics still should have a role in business. Oh my..what did I say

agree 100%

 

[FrantzM]

Hi
Repeating myself and fully in agreement with XV-1 , Nirodha and edorr. Gear are getting more expensive by the years and frankly progress is not that enormous, especially in electronics. The Market however is remarkably accepting and its aficionados (repeating) have shown they will accept any rationale put forth by the Manufacturers. The 40 to 70 years old with substantial discretionary income market is not about to dry up so this will go on for a while. Those people (we) still remember what it was to have a stereo console in the Living Room. The millenniums however listen to music differently ... we'll see... High End Audio has merged with High End Luxury market and in such markets performance is (almost?) secondary... It has become that and to me it is to the detriment of progress in music reproduction.

Sorry about that rant/OT back to the Magico Q7 a splendid speaker.

 

[Steve Williams]

ok; lets say that instead of Maxx3's you owned the original X-2 Alexander Mk1's. you had in the last year purchased these for $125k. today they come out with Alexander Mk2's for $150k, or you can upgrade for $50k.

would you rather that they don't offer the upgrade????

The upgrade from the X2 series one to the X2 series ll was $25K not $50K if you were the original owner of the speaker. When I bought my X2 series ll I sold my X2 series l but sent it back to WA first for the upgrade before the new owner got them (he is a member here at WBF )

or you would be pissed if Wilson would sell you a X2 as the "best of the best".... and introduce 3mths later a XLF as the "new best of the best", without an upgrade path

Stereo, you never cease to crack me up. Let me count the number of times Alon and Magico have done that with their speakers. Lets start at the M series for instance. How long did that last before it quickly became obsolete. Call a spade a spade stereo without your chest thumping. Alon and Magico is no different nor is any other manufacturer so give it a break

 

[cannata]

There is a reason why an upgrade should only cost parts and about 10%: ... I know, I know...nobody is forcing you to take the offer but still... I am oldfashioned and believe that ethics still should have a role in business. Oh my..what did I say

And you can run a business with only 10% for G&A?

So how much do you think an upgrade should cost? Let’s see, the only diamond tweeters I could find information on cost $2900 a piece. God only know what a cone with Graphene cost. Some of these Mundorf caps cost $300 a piece, looking at pictures of a Q7 XO shows rows of them (Yes, I know these are all MSRP, but still, these are not radio shack parts.). How about new face plates? Have you ever seen one of these? Magico says it takes 8 hours to machine one. We cost our CNC machines time internally at €175 an hour. Not to mention hard anodize finish. It adds up quickly, and then you have the margins. Both dealers and distributor need to survive as well, don’t you think (Assuming they facilitate the transaction). And god forbid, if Magico will make some profit as well.

 

[number95]

Hi
Repeating myself and fully in agreement with XV-1 , Nirodha and edorr. Gear are getting more expensive by the years and frankly progress is not that enormous, especially in electronics. The Market however is remarkably accepting and its aficionados (repeating) have shown they will accept any rationale put forth by the Manufacturers. The 40 to 70 years old with substantial discretionary income market is not about to dry up so this will go on for a while. Those people (we) still remember what it was to have a stereo console in the Living Room. The millenniums however listen to music differently ... we'll see... High End Audio has merged with High End Luxury market and in such markets performance is (almost?) secondary... It has become that and to me it is to the detriment of progress in music reproduction.

Sorry about that rant/OT back to the Magico Q7 a splendid speaker.

Can we say that refers to diminishing marginal returns? For sure the more cost, the better speaker one gets but the additional performance compared to cost is asymmetrical at the very hiend. But it is similar to some other elements, it is not only speakers. How many of us were aware that there were cartridges over 10k usd until recently? Now, almost all of the top performers are either apporaching to that or exceeding it with healthy margins, crazy but true.

 

[egidius]

Original Q7 was 185k, so for an additional 40k

Didn't somebody here get it for 75K, and it made a huge splash, when something went astray. I personally don't go for that sort of budget, even if I could (I honestly believe that ;-) - also because these amounts are simply difficult to appraise in terms of value.

 

[wizard]

The Q7 MKII under development in the Magico listening room.

 

[stereo]

yes... this is the unfinished front plate I saw 10 days ago

 

[KeithR]

I think this means the market for super speakers is becoming saturated.

 

[thedudeabides]

I really don't get the never ending cycle where the new model needs to be 25% more expensive than the previous model - It is unsustainable imo Magico are not alone at this practice, I am just using them as an example.

The market will eventually decide as it always does. What's disturbs me is this industry, at the "uber" end, is really becoming a "boutique / how much does your speaker" cost. How do you quantify a $45K mod within the context of musical enjoyment?

I agree with XV-1 regarding CJ. Another recent example is the new Esoteric K01X CDP. Priced $1K above the legacy model, which I just purchased at a reasonable discount.

Seems to me the runaway train is out of control but what do I know.