Magico Titan 15

[Ron Resnick]

Agree...these have in my sights for over a year now. More to come...

WE WANT DETAILS!!!

How are you going to choose between stacked 15 inchers or stacked 18 inchers?

Will drivers be back-to-back (dipole style)?

Stacked three pairs high (we don't want low frequencies emanating only from the floor) and back-to-back would be a total of 12 drivers. That is a whole lot of wooferage!

 

[LL21]

Hey Ron,

Very early stages but I have considered room, budget, my own (very limited) experience (and far more limited technical knowledge) to come to the following big picture framework for my goals:

1. Deep bass is important to me because:
- Sub frequencies (sub 35hz) in my understanding and experience deliver an enveloping sense of space of the venue ALL around you
- Great for movie soundtracks where our sound system is also attached to the film projector
- At super low volumes, it is remarkable how much a super-low noise floor combined 'unlimited' deep bass enables you to feel completely enveloped, a nice chest-thump and a fulsome sound at 'volume 1'
- My observation and experience is one reason people keep turning up the music is because they are looking for slam, that sense of satisfaction from power/depth/grunt. Over the years, I find I am turning DOWN the system more often because I 'get it all' at lower volumes. Equally, if I do turn it up...it is a marvel but I dont feel any lack when I turn it DOWN. For me, that is definitely due to super low noise floor combined with powerful subterranean-bass that provides that solid foundation at all levels.

2. Oh and also because I just love deep bass. And once you hear it done much better...it is always very very hard to go backwards

3. When working with 'full range speakers', there are still some important factor about what makes a subwoofer "necessary" (for me)
- Deep bass takes a LOT of power, a LOT of air movement...ALL of which tends to distort unless you have unlimited power, cone surface area
- Velodyne has feedback loops that run several thousand times a second to ensure it reduces distortion...I have read from reviewers, measurements and (for me most importantly) from industry professionals like owners of audio manufacturers with no affiliation...that it works
- All-in, my layman's takeaway is: to get 20hz is one thing...to get it undistorted, filling a room at a level consistent with where it needs to be to match the rest of the "full range speaker" is an entirely different matter

4. So with all of that in mind, I did some simple logic and math
- Go with respected designers...because once I choose a basic path...I 100% must trust the designer, because I have not really got a clue about what's good or great or not
- My basic path based on simple math (Name, #/Size of Cones, Cone Surface Area, Displacement (based on excursion)

REL 25 - 6 Pack		6 x 15 inch	1,060	sq inches	4,241	inches cubed
Funk Audio 18.2 x 2		4 x 18 inch	1,018	sq inches	3,054	inches cubed
REL 25 - 4 Pack		4 x 15 inch	707	sq inches	2,827	inches cubed
Magico Qsub 18 x 2		4 x 18 inch	1,018	sq inches	2,708	inches cubed
Wilson Thor x 2		4 x 15 inch	707	sq inches	2,121	inches cubed
Funk Audio 18.2 x 1		2 x 18 inch	509	sq inches	1,527	inches cubed
Magico Qsub 18		2 x 18 inch	509	sq inches	1,354	inches cubed
Wilson Thor x 1		2 x 15 inch	353	sq inches	1,060	inches cubed
REL 25 x 1		1 x 15 inch	177	sq inches	707	inches cubed
Velodyne DD18+ x 1		1 x 18 inch	254	sq inches	662	inches cubed

- As you can see a single Velodyne DD18+ which makes a meaningful improvement...pales in comparison to the REL 6-Pack in terms of physical displacement...not only can we confidently guess no amount of error correction is going to make the DD18+ outperform the sheer scale of the
REL 6-pack because the 6-pack is loafing to deliver the same amount of bass as the Velodyne (therefore highly likely lower distortion)...
...but once again, I come back to the first premise which is GO WITH A GREAT DESIGNER IN ALL CASES. 6xREL flagship vs 1x Velodyne flagship.

5. Finally we look at physical space/size and budget. The REL 6-pack is HUGE...a SINGLE column is 29 inches ACROSS and 31 inches DEEP and 64 inches tall...That is a LOT of floor space when you are then talking TWO of these columns over 5 feet high each.
- Then there is the cost...some 45K for the set
- Compare that with the no doubt awesome Wilson Thors which each cost 25K or more (50K)...plus amplification and crossover necessary...(12K-15k?)
- By contrast of ALL the options on this chart...the very next 'theoretical top performer' is the dual Funk 18.2...each of which is 24" x 24" x 22.7". Dual-opposed, an exceptional reputation by all account I have been able to find...and the measurements from 3 sources look outrageously clean.
- If you are playing these at probably UP TO 28hz-32hz...then we are talking about low-distortion air movement more than tunefulness (I think...conjecture on my part.)

Hence that is why I have Funk 18.2s in my sites...something to look at...but only after the system here is fully calibrated setup, and some next-up finetuning being done now.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

i can tell you that in my limited listening to my 3 Funk 18.0's; they are super smooth, utterly unflappable, and tuneful. any signal they are presented with is child's play. and i do enjoy the look and feel of them too.

i suspect that their particular adjustment flexibility might surpass other subs. the AllDSP software on-board has tons of adjustment depth.

Audio Technology Made in Germany | ALLDSP

We offer state-of-the-art technology, including 140dB A/D and D/A converters, 64-bit high speed processing, audio networking connectivity, IIR and FIR

www.alldsp.com

and from my time with my MM7's with the bass towers; having headroom in deep bass performance makes music so effortless and authoritative, and helps to make it real and emotional. in the context of a serious system investment, the ROI for great bass in the whole picture is significant.

bravo Lloyd for the excellent post too!!! it makes sense.

 

[LL21]

Awesome, Mike...that is incredibly powerful feedback. Your experience is virtually unparalleled in the outer reaches of the high end universe. Thanks for weighing in here. Our local dealer stopped by as we get to the next/final phase of finetuning the system...and we spoke about these subwoofer options and permutations and even went thru that Excel file with all of the options. Always good to experienced feedback from people whose opinions are highly respected.

 

[HenryD]

Magico TITAN 15 The Ultimate Powered Subwoofer — Magico Loudspeakers

HAYWARD, CA - November 4, 2021 – Magico LLC , the Leader in High-Performance Loudspeaker Design and Manufacture, is pleased to announce the TITAN 15: a new pinnacle of Magico engineering and design vision for the ultimate subwoofer. Whether listening t

www.magicoaudio.com

Impressive, I don't think you can stack these, they are 390lbs each.

 

[LL21]

Actually, from a structural standpoint, I would have thought with aluminum frame, it would EASILY hold 390lbs. If it weighs 390lbs...mostly the aluminum...that is a lot of aluminum to hold basically 2 guys standing on top.

As for sound quality...that is different...I suspect it would be fine from a vibrational standpoint...and there is also a lot of benefit of stacking in terms of control of different nodes in the room (horizontal and vertical). The REL 6-pack comes to mind along with loads of dual-tower subs that are part of 4-tower systems.

In terms of vibration alone, our DD18+ Velodyne sub is nowhere near as robustly built...its wood-framed. But to mass damp it we have something like 200lbs of mass damping on top of the sub. It has held perfectly fine for 6 years. And we had moved it as we were reconfiguring the system...and took the weight off...more bloated, less defined bass...managed to put 85% of it back on and the bass mostly snapped right back into place nicely.

 

[PeterA]

WE WANT DETAILS!!!

How are you going to choose between stacked 15 inchers or stacked 18 inchers?

Will drivers be back-to-back (dipole style)?

Stacked three pairs high (we don't want low frequencies emanating only from the floor) and back-to-back would be a total of 12 drivers. That is a whole lot of wooferage!

1200 pounds for each stack. How would you raise the upper subs? Also $180,000 for the subwoofers? Seems kind of excessive and I don’t know if anyone would consider this configuration. But with the M9, the combination would be a cool million dollars.

 

[LL21]

Probably the same way you hoist the (500lb) upper half of the Arrakis on top of the 500lb base...very carefully! In all seriousness, as you say, for even 1 let along 6, the pricetag weighs even more heavily than the aluminum!

Of course, the Goebel Epoque Baforce tower sub (active) is Eur125K each! 16 x 8" cones (8 x dual-opposing in a single tower weighing 350kg or 770lbs). If the excusion of each cone is 'only' 2 inches, then the air movement of this is equivalent (I think?) to 2 x Wilson Thors.

I have tried to do reading on all the crazy all-out, well designed ideas. I have spoken with 2 people who have actually heard the Baforce.

But for me, air movement below 30hz is less a focus on tone and more on just significant air movement with low distortion to create sense of spacial cue and realism...at LOW levels (not club levels even if that could be fun from time to time).

 

[Ron Resnick]

Hey Ron,

Very early stages but I have considered room, budget, my own (very limited) experience (and far more limited technical knowledge) to come to the following big picture framework for my goals:

1. Deep bass is important to me because:
- Sub frequencies (sub 35hz) in my understanding and experience deliver an enveloping sense of space of the venue ALL around you
- Great for movie soundtracks where our sound system is also attached to the film projector
- At super low volumes, it is remarkable how much a super-low noise floor combined 'unlimited' deep bass enables you to feel completely enveloped, a nice chest-thump and a fulsome sound at 'volume 1'
- My observation and experience is one reason people keep turning up the music is because they are looking for slam, that sense of satisfaction from power/depth/grunt. Over the years, I find I am turning DOWN the system more often because I 'get it all' at lower volumes. Equally, if I do turn it up...it is a marvel but I dont feel any lack when I turn it DOWN. For me, that is definitely due to super low noise floor combined with powerful subterranean-bass that provides that solid foundation at all levels.

2. Oh and also because I just love deep bass. And once you hear it done much better...it is always very very hard to go backwards

3. When working with 'full range speakers', there are still some important factor about what makes a subwoofer "necessary" (for me)
- Deep bass takes a LOT of power, a LOT of air movement...ALL of which tends to distort unless you have unlimited power, cone surface area
- Velodyne has feedback loops that run several thousand times a second to ensure it reduces distortion...I have read from reviewers, measurements and (for me most importantly) from industry professionals like owners of audio manufacturers with no affiliation...that it works
- All-in, my layman's takeaway is: to get 20hz is one thing...to get it undistorted, filling a room at a level consistent with where it needs to be to match the rest of the "full range speaker" is an entirely different matter

4. So with all of that in mind, I did some simple logic and math
- Go with respected designers...because once I choose a basic path...I 100% must trust the designer, because I have not really got a clue about what's good or great or not
- My basic path based on simple math (Name, #/Size of Cones, Cone Surface Area, Displacement (based on excursion)

REL 25 - 6 Pack		6 x 15 inch	1,060	sq inches	4,241	inches cubed
Funk Audio 18.2 x 2		4 x 18 inch	1,018	sq inches	3,054	inches cubed
REL 25 - 4 Pack		4 x 15 inch	707	sq inches	2,827	inches cubed
Magico Qsub 18 x 2		4 x 18 inch	1,018	sq inches	2,708	inches cubed
Wilson Thor x 2		4 x 15 inch	707	sq inches	2,121	inches cubed
Funk Audio 18.2 x 1		2 x 18 inch	509	sq inches	1,527	inches cubed
Magico Qsub 18		2 x 18 inch	509	sq inches	1,354	inches cubed
Wilson Thor x 1		2 x 15 inch	353	sq inches	1,060	inches cubed
REL 25 x 1		1 x 15 inch	177	sq inches	707	inches cubed
Velodyne DD18+ x 1		1 x 18 inch	254	sq inches	662	inches cubed

- As you can see a single Velodyne DD18+ which makes a meaningful improvement...pales in comparison to the REL 6-Pack in terms of physical displacement...not only can we confidently guess no amount of error correction is going to make the DD18+ outperform the sheer scale of the
REL 6-pack because the 6-pack is loafing to deliver the same amount of bass as the Velodyne (therefore highly likely lower distortion)...
...but once again, I come back to the first premise which is GO WITH A GREAT DESIGNER IN ALL CASES. 6xREL flagship vs 1x Velodyne flagship.

5. Finally we look at physical space/size and budget. The REL 6-pack is HUGE...a SINGLE column is 29 inches ACROSS and 31 inches DEEP and 64 inches tall...That is a LOT of floor space when you are then talking TWO of these columns over 5 feet high each.
- Then there is the cost...some 45K for the set
- Compare that with the no doubt awesome Wilson Thors which each cost 25K or more (50K)...plus amplification and crossover necessary...(12K-15k?)
- By contrast of ALL the options on this chart...the very next 'theoretical top performer' is the dual Funk 18.2...each of which is 24" x 24" x 22.7". Dual-opposed, an exceptional reputation by all account I have been able to find...and the measurements from 3 sources look outrageously clean.
- If you are playing these at probably UP TO 28hz-32hz...then we are talking about low-distortion air movement more than tunefulness (I think...conjecture on my part.)

Hence that is why I have Funk 18.2s in my sites...something to look at...but only after the system here is fully calibrated setup, and some next-up finetuning being done now.

Thank you very much, Lloyd, for explaining your analysis to us! Very impressive, and it all makes good sense!

 

[Ron Resnick]

1200 pounds for each stack. How would you raise the upper subs? Also $180,000 for the subwoofers? Seems kind of excessive and I don’t know if anyone would consider this configuration. But with the M9, the combination would be a cool million dollars.

I was thinking REL No.25 6-pack not Magico Titan 15 6-pack.

 

[Ron Resnick]

i can tell you that in my limited listening to my 3 Funk 18.0's; they are super smooth, utterly unflappable, and tuneful. any signal they are presented with is child's play. and i do enjoy the look and feel of them too.

We always have the conundrum of the theoretical pros and cons of 15" drivers versus 18" drivers. The REL No. 25 uses a 15" driver. Mike's MM7 woofer towers use 15" drivers. The new Titan 15 uses 15" drivers. The Q-Sub 18 uses 18" drivers.

Wilson Audio has evolved its biggest subwoofer over the years from 18" drivers (XS) to 15" drivers (Thor) to 12" drivers (Master Subsonic).

Lloyd, how did you come to focus on the Funk 18.2, and not the Funk 15.2?

Mike, how did you come to focus on the Funk 18.0 and not the Funk 15.0?

How do we know what is the "right" answer to this driver size question?

In theory I think we want to maximize the sum of low frequency resolution and texture and low frequency extension. How do we figure this out a priori?

 

[LL21]

Hey Ron,

My super-layman's thinking:

1. A few things on 15" vs 18" vs 12" vs multiple arrays of 9"...everyone seems to point to different elements. Some say the 18" is heavier...prefer more smaller cones (same surface area but lighter, more pistonic.) Frankly, I have no clue.

2. However, I suspect that once you go past surface area of the cone to actual air displacement, then the physics of cone movement appears to include more factors (excursion of the cone)...specifically how much further does a small cone have to move relative to its circumference to equal a larger cone.

- Take 2 x 18" woofers: 509 square inches of surface area
- Take 8 x 9" woofers: 509 square inches of surface area

3. I believe in stupid man's math world, the 2 x 18" cones with a peak to peak excursion of 3 inches moves 1,527 cubic inches of air. If we wish to move this same amount of air with the 8 x 9" woofers...do they also have to move 3 inches in excursion? Very hard to see that happening with such a small cone...certainly controlling the cone at that extreme without distortion is yet another matter. Or more likely the 9inch cones will NOT provide that much excursion. (Note, the REL 25th 15" cone provides 4" of excursion!)

4. So for me, at 30hz or below (where once again, I dont think about tone as much as very low distortion high air movement to create aural cues)...then I focus on:
- super-duper high power magnetic structures
- servo systems
- LOTS of current/power to control cone movement

5. And all of that moving a BIG cone back and forth very little...rather than forcing a lot of smaller cones to go thru what is relatively speaking quite a lot of excursion. And even better yet, I am focusing on MULTIPLE large 18" woofers moving back and forth very very little...and with dual-opposing, we are also canceling out some of movement of the unit/distortion etc with the opposing forces of the 2 cones firing out each side.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

We always have the conundrum of the theoretical pros and cons of 15" drivers versus 18" drivers. The REL No. 25 uses a 15" driver. Mike's MM7 woofer towers use 15" drivers. The new Titan 15 uses 15" drivers. The Q-Sub 18 uses 18" drivers.

Wilson Audio has evolved its biggest subwoofer over the years from 18" drivers (XS) to 15" drivers (Thor) to 12" drivers (Master Subsonic).

Lloyd, how did you come to focus on the Funk 18.2, and not the Funk 15.2?

Mike, how did you come to focus on the Funk 18.0 and not the Funk 15.0?

How do we know what is the "right" answer to this driver size question?

In theory I think we want to maximize the sum of low frequency resolution and texture and low frequency extension. How do we figure this out a priori?

it's very simple......Funk Audio subwoofers 'start' at 18 inch drivers. and they are all sealed boxes, no vents. of course, every Funk Audio driver is built by Nathan Funk; they are hand made. there are video's on their website of their methods.

Funk does build full range speakers, too. and they build the driver's for those too. why do the Funk's seem to be more musical than the typical sub? it might have a lot to do with 100% controlling the pieces that go into their products (except the dsp modules and maybe tweeters). they do quite a bit of totally custom work.

 

[LL21]

BTW, Ron, I have spoken with 3 designers of subwoofers, true industry experts who have made their business about speakers and specifically subs. For the range I am focused on (sub 30hz)...ALL 3 focused me on larger cones. I specifically asked about the big tall arrays of 9", and all independently advised me to focus on larger cones, less cone movement relatively speaking, and exceptional quality electronic controls/crossover, huge power and heroic build.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Hey Ron,

My super-layman's thinking:

1. A few things on 15" vs 18" vs 12" vs multiple arrays of 9"...everyone seems to point to different elements. Some say the 18" is heavier...prefer more smaller cones (same surface area but lighter, more pistonic.) Frankly, I have no clue.

2. However, I suspect that once you go past surface area of the cone to actual air displacement, then the physics of cone movement appears to include more factors (excursion of the cone)...specifically how much further does a small cone have to move relative to its circumference to equal a larger cone.

- Take 2 x 18" woofers: 509 square inches of surface area
- Take 8 x 9" woofers: 509 square inches of surface area

3. I believe in stupid man's math world, the 2 x 18" cones with a peak to peak excursion of 3 inches moves 1,527 cubic inches of air. If we wish to move this same amount of air with the 8 x 9" woofers...do they also have to move 3 inches in excursion? Very hard to see that happening with such a small cone...certainly controlling the cone at that extreme without distortion is yet another matter. Or more likely the 9inch cones will NOT provide that much excursion. (Note, the REL 25th 15" cone provides 4" of excursion!)

4. So for me, at 30hz or below (where once again, I dont think about tone as much as very low distortion high air movement to create aural cues)...then I focus on:
- super-duper high power magnetic structures
- servo systems
- LOTS of current/power to control cone movement

5. And all of that moving a BIG cone back and forth very little...rather than forcing a lot of smaller cones to go thru what is relatively speaking quite a lot of excursion. And even better yet, I am focusing on MULTIPLE large 18" woofers moving back and forth very very little...and with dual-opposing, we are also canceling out some of movement of the unit/distortion etc with the opposing forces of the 2 cones firing out each side.

Thank you, Lloyd!

Far into the future I see REL No. 25s or Funk 18.2s in my future . . .

 

[Ron Resnick]

it's very simple......Funk Audio subwoofers 'start' at 18 inch drivers. and they are all sealed boxes, no vents. of course, every Funk Audio driver is built by Nathan Funk; they are hand made. there are video's on their website of their methods.

Funk does build full range speakers, too. and they build the driver's for those too. why do the Funk's seem to be more musical than the typical sub? it might have a lot to do with 100% controlling the pieces that go into their products (except the dsp modules and maybe tweeters). they do quite a bit of totally custom work.

Thank you, Mike!

 

[Ron Resnick]

BTW, Ron, I have spoken with 3 designers of subwoofers, true industry experts who have made their business about speakers and specifically subs. For the range I am focused on (sub 30hz)...ALL 3 focused me on larger cones. I specifically asked about the big tall arrays of 9", and all independently advised me to focus on larger cones, less cone movement relatively speaking, and exceptional quality electronic controls/crossover, huge power and heroic build.

Oh, I agree! A long array of 8 inch or 9 inch drivers is not the answer to the question we are asking here!

 

[PeterA]

Thank you, Lloyd!

Far into the future I see REL No. 25s or Funk 18.2s in my future . . .

Ron, you’re planning to augment your four tower speaker system with additional stacks of subwoofers?

 

[Carlos269]

Ron, you’re planning to augment your four tower speaker system with additional stacks of subwoofers?

He’s trying to join the six tower system club:



I will need to move on to the eight towers……

 

[Ron Resnick]

Ron, you’re planning to augment your four tower speaker system with additional stacks of subwoofers?

Maybe more woofing is better than less woofing?

(We will have to consult Big Dog RJ on this subject!)