Master Built-What are Owners Hearing That They Didn't Hear With Other Cables

[JackD201]

Hi Ron

They work just as beneficially with our line of ribbon hybrids

http://ambiencespeakers.com.au/reference-series/

 

[Ron Resnick]

Folsom, but what about single ribbon driver speakers?

Thank you, Jack!

 

[Steve Williams]

Folsom, but what about single ribbon driver speakers?

not sure what you're getting at Ron

Why would you consider there to be a potential problem with using these cables with ribbon speakers

 

[Ron Resnick]

I am not getting at anything other than my original question.

I wrote originally "There certainly is no reason to suspect the MasterBuilt cables would be a mismatch with ribbon drivers, but stranger things in this hobby have happened."

I simply asked for the reports of people who are using these cables with ribbon-driver based speakers. Folsom is kind to offer his opinion on the technical aspects but it is not responsive to my question. I was soliciting the replies of people actually using these cables on Apogee or Analysis Audio or big Genesis speakers or Wisdom speakers, etc.

Jack's post was directly responsive.

 

[Steve Williams]

The only cable issues I've ever been aware with has been with Spectral. I see no reason for concern on your part

 

[microstrip]

(...) The MB cables, at least the ones using super conductors, are using super conductors at room temp. Their resistance is actually a little higher at room temp than copper. Common laymen thought is that equals bad, but it's not that simple. Fact is the low resistance found in almost any location you can think of in audio equipment runs the chance for causing problems; including but not limited to weak bass, ringing, and more. I don't believe either of us have the patients to put you through electronics school in this thread so I'll leave it at that.

Don't forget that the MB cables have special outer coatings that offset the first concerns people would have with not using the lowest resistance possible. The point is moot, in that the cables aren't collecting noise from having a different resistance value. If the cables where just super conductors they wouldn't perform the way they do; MB creators are no fools. And the difference in resistance could be considerable negligible when you put it into perspective since MB uses larger gauge than typical, and other people out there are using 16ga wire which has more resistance than someone uses 8ga or larger wire.... etc etc.

Do you have any real data on MB cables that is not pure speculation?

 

[Folsom]

Folsom, but what about single ribbon driver speakers?

Thank you, Jack!

With a single ribbon driver I would expect more benefit than with fewer.

Do you have any real data on MB cables that is not pure speculation?

Awhile back MB was advertising the super conductor, which you can actually look up the spec's. It's possible they were not telling the truth, but I have to assume they were. The reaction was sort of interesting because of the fear of resistance and then I stopped seeing them advertising the super conductor material. I'll give an interesting point, they have 16ga SE IC's, right, well that's excessively large and not usually advisable except that with a super conductor it makes total sense because they're compensating for the wires resistance in order to bring all the very beneficial properties.

I personally think the way MB cables are built is very smart. I'm not saying they're the best because I haven't had the pleasure of swapping them in and out, but contrary to first glance from an engineering perspective, they are actually on another level than most cables from an engineering perspective. Unless they were telling us something not true, microstrip.

 

[microstrip]

(...) Awhile back MB was advertising the super conductor, which you can actually look up the spec's. It's possible they were not telling the truth, but I have to assume they were. The reaction was sort of interesting because of the fear of resistance and then I stopped seeing them advertising the super conductor material. I'll give an interesting point, they have 16ga SE IC's, right, well that's excessively large and not usually advisable except that with a super conductor it makes total sense because they're compensating for the wires resistance in order to bring all the very beneficial properties.

I personally think the way MB cables are built is very smart. I'm not saying they're the best because I haven't had the pleasure of swapping them in and out, but contrary to first glance from an engineering perspective, they are actually on another level than most cables from an engineering perspective. Unless they were telling us something not true, microstrip.

I participated in the original thread on the MB cables and still remember they clearly declined to answer technical questions, in order to protect their intellectual property on these cables. What we can take for sure is that they use techniques that are used in superconductors and their cables are manufactured by companies that manufacture superconductor cables for known and famous laboratories and facilities. IMHO all else is speculation, and unless we have a cable to try and measure we will be hypothesizing on the absolute dark.

As far as I see, no one has until now proved with science why a cable sounds like it sounds. Why should we expect that MB will be different?

IMHO only factual data is relevant in most cable matters. YMMV, surely.

 

[microstrip]

The only cable issues I've ever been aware with has been with Spectral. I see no reason for concern on your part

Yes, it is the best known case. Some old Naim amplfiers also could not be used with many cables, and I remember than when Monitor Audio introduced their famous woven green and copper braided cable, also known as Polk Audio cable, it could make several amplifiers oscillate.

 

[Folsom]

Too low of resistance is more likely to make an oscillation occur. That may be a factor of the inductance just as much as raw DC resistance; heavily braided cables will lower inductance. The inductance plays a role in higher frequencies the amp may attempt to drive causing the oscillation when there's little to no resistance for them - frequencies that generally are not in or close to the audio spectrum.

I agree, we are working on some speculation with MB, but I don't doubt what they've said. If they're using super conductors (claimed earlier) it validates all the questions we have.

 

[amirm]

I agree, we are working on some speculation with MB, but I don't doubt what they've said. If they're using super conductors (claimed earlier) it validates all the questions we have.

You are easy to satisfy . They have said that they use the same alloy as the superconductors used at CERN as I reported on the first page of this thread. That superconductor runs at -249 degree C at CERN. It was never designed for room temperature anything. If we believe that is what they are using then they are on their own with respect to any technical claims. Nothing you have speculated regarding their cable has any basis in how superconductors work unless you are saying that we should use higher impedances than normal cables in which case, why bother with superconducting alloy?

 

[spiritofmusic]

Can't Ron acquire some MBs on sale or return basis?
I know he can w my brand that I've recommended to him
Then it'll be just a case of plug, play, keep, or return

 

[Folsom]

You are easy to satisfy . They have said that they use the same alloy as the superconductors used at CERN as I reported on the first page of this thread. That superconductor runs at -249 degree C at CERN. It was never designed for room temperature anything. If we believe that is what they are using then they are on their own with respect to any technical claims. Nothing you have speculated regarding their cable has any basis in how superconductors work unless you are saying that we should use higher impedances than normal cables in which case, why bother with superconducting alloy?

Because it may be one of the only materials you can tune the LCR properties with in such a way that you're not forced into using high noise forms of resistance. CERN probably not only required super conducting, but low noise, in order to have their experiments work. For example if you tried to make cables out of very low value resistors you'd introduce a lot of noise... I'm sure there could be a bit more to it than that, but that alone is reason to look at alternative materials.

Can't Ron acquire some MBs on sale or return basis?
I know he can w my brand that I've recommended to him
Then it'll be just a case of plug, play, keep, or return

Steve did an audition, I'd guess Ron might get a stab at it!

 

[DonH50]

I have worked a little with superconductors for microwave filters and similar applications as well as JJ's (Josephson Junctions) for data converters and logic circuits. High-temperature superconductors operate at around 90 K (-183 deg C, -298 deg F). Another group works around 77 K (liquid nitrogen), and another down around 4 K (liquid helium). There are no room-temperature superconductors available (yet) AFAIK. And, the materials that comprise superconductors at those very low temperature, do indeed have high'ish resistance at room temperature. A room-temperature superconductor is one of the holy grails not yet attained (again AFAIK). Whatever MB cables offer sonically and technically I find it very hard to believe that superconductivity is one of them. A lot of materials research that has been done for things like CERN and other accelerator and fusion projects could be relevant but claiming superconductor cables sounds like marketing hyperbole to me. Claiming a link to the materials research revolving around nuclear physics programs and superconductivity could be valid and I suspect that is what stated rather than claiming they are actually superconducting cables. Unless there is a dewar around?

The instrumentation for nuclear physics experiments is some of the hardest to design. I have done some of that, working in the past for a company that helped instrument the US effort (now long shut down). Low noise, wide bandwidth, high dynamic range, low power (at least at the sensor), and insensitivity to all sorts of nasty radiation makes for extremely challenging designs, worse than the radar and space systems I worked on for much of my career.

Note this is a comment purely on the potential for superconducting technology in a room temperature (RT) audio (or any other) cable. Their impact on the sound is not something I know anything about.

IME/IMO/FWIWFM/etc. - Don

 

[amirm]

Because it may be one of the only materials you can tune the LCR properties with in such a way that you're not forced into using high noise forms of resistance. CERN probably not only required super conducting, but low noise, in order to have their experiments work.

Ah, no.

Superconductors are used at CERN to produce massive magnetic field that in turn deflect tiny particles so that they can identify them. The magnets draw some 11,000 amps to create that field so any resistance in the coils would cause massive losses. By cooling them to such low temperatures and using superconducting material, the losses go to almost zero allowing them to work.

Prior to collision, superconducting magnets also accelerate the particles and yet again, superconductivity brings efficiency and high magnetic field.

Superconductivity is not used to pick up small signals as you are assuming.

For example if you tried to make cables out of very low value resistors you'd introduce a lot of noise... I'm sure there could be a bit more to it than that, but that alone is reason to look at alternative materials.

I have not read anything outside of usage at CERN/LHC's that is beyond building super powerful magnets using superconductors. That application naturally has nothing to do with transmission of audio in a home system operating at room temp.

 

[Folsom]

Obviously any super conductor material used at room temp, is no longer super conducting. That doesn't mean none of them would have any value.

Perhaps they don't require low noise, but that doesn't mean that they are not. Harmonic noise that can be generated can suck current more than you might think. It would most likely be advisable for them to generate as little noise as possible for CERN who's trying to use huge amounts of power and fighting for every tiny bit.

 

[Steve Williams]

Ah, no.

Superconductors are used at CERN to produce massive magnetic field that in turn deflect tiny particles so that they can identify them. The magnets draw some 11,000 amps to create that field so any resistance in the coils would cause massive losses. By cooling them to such low temperatures and using superconducting material, the losses go to almost zero allowing them to work.

Prior to collision, superconducting magnets also accelerate the particles and yet again, superconductivity brings efficiency and high magnetic field.

Superconductivity is not used to pick up small signals as you are assuming.


I have not read anything outside of usage at CERN/LHC's that is beyond building super powerful magnets using superconductors. That application naturally has nothing to do with transmission of audio in a home system operating at room temp.

Speculation is just that. You should pony up and buy yourself an Ultra cable and then tell us what you really think. IMHO I have never heard a better cable than the Ultra. And if you think they are going to tell you what they're made of you can continue to speculate all you want.

And yes to Folsom's question as Leif does send out loaners

 

[dafos]

I'm currently using a bi wired reference speaker cable to my Aida and signature power cords to my amp and pre. This isn't an improvement, this is is a transformation. I never thought that my system was capable of this kind of performance. Enough said, I'm speechless.

 

[amirm]

Obviously any super conductor material used at room temp, is no longer super conducting. That doesn't mean none of them would have any value.

Why? Why couldn't it be a demerit?

Perhaps they don't require low noise, but that doesn't mean that they are not.

Johnson noise is proportional to square root of resistance. Since superconductors have higher resistance at room temperature, they actually have higher noise than copper/silver. It is when the alloy is at superconducting state that it loses its resistivity, not at room temp. If what you assume is true then electronic instruments would use them but they do not.

Harmonic noise that can be generated can suck current more than you might think. It would most likely be advisable for them to generate as little noise as possible for CERN who's trying to use huge amounts of power and fighting for every tiny bit.

Again, CERN uses them at near absolute zero. Their material completely acts differently then. It is a sudden transformation that occurs that does not exist otherwise and certainly not at room temp. See this graph:

What you demonstrating is that as soon as people hear the word "superconductor" they assume goodness. Simple look under the cover shows that it has no benefit and actual demerit in real life. The knowledge is specialized so companies are safe in assuming people won't look under the cover.

 

[Leif S]

I'm currently using a bi wired reference speaker cable to my Aida and signature power cords to my amp and pre. This isn't an improvement, this is is a transformation. I never thought that my system was capable of this kind of performance. Enough said, I'm speechless.

Congrats dafos welcome to the club