Miyajima Labs 1.0 mil Infinity Mono

[mtemur]

I have an EMT TD 25N mono cartridge for a long time. It has 1.0 mil stylus and no vertical compliance. There hasn’t been any problem or damage to my modern mono records cut by a stereo cutter head. Naturally there are no problems with old mono records either.

 

[DetroitVinylRob]

Yet again, though I’m not recommending inappropriate behavior, when poised with the question, “if I accidentally put a stereo LP under a Miyajima Labs 0.7mil Zero, will I most certainly damage the record?” Rob of Robyatt Audio (the importer) suggested at the time “definitely not, don’t worry about it”. Antidotally, I have put at least one stereo LP under the MZ, it sounded horrific, I would’ve imagined that I had absolutely destroyed the record, and yet, when playing it under a proper stereo cartridge, I thankfully could not identify any damage.

 

[montesquieu]

Yet again, though I’m not recommending inappropriate behavior, when poised with the question, “if I accidentally put a stereo LP under a Miyajima Labs 0.7mil Zero, will I most certainly damage the record?” Rob of Robyatt Audio (the importer) suggested at the time “definitely not, don’t worry about it”. Antidotally, I have put at least one stereo LP under the MZ, it sounded horrific, I would’ve imagined that I had absolutely destroyed the record, and yet, when playing it under a proper stereo cartridge, I thankfully could not identify any damage.

Rob is talking nonsense. Many of us here are old enough to remember the dire warnings about playing 'stereophonic records' with mono non-compliant cartridges - the Miyajima is simply one of these with modern MC output levels.

You were lucky. I got away with it a number of times. Other times I didn't. You can expect a sales and marketing dude to put the best possible spin on something but 'definitely not' is plain wrong and frankly irresponsible.

It's all about tracking force, overall mass/intertia, degree of panning on the record, and amplitude of the material. Sometimes you'll hear damage, sometimes you won't. Frankly at 4.0g tracking force (typical for a mono Miyahima), the intertia of a high-mass arm (30g in the case of my Glanz), and material on the record panned across the soundstage to varying levels, it's a game of Russian routlette.

This wasn't scaremongering then, and it's not scaremongering now with a (welcome, with caveats) return to the same technology:

 

[DetroitVinylRob]

Rob is talking nonsense. Many of us here are old enough to remember the dire warnings about playing 'stereophonic records' with mono non-compliant cartridges - the Miyajima is simply one of these with modern MC output levels.

You were lucky. I got away with it a number of times. Other times I didn't. You can expect a sales and marketing dude to put the best possible spin on something but 'definitely not' is plain wrong and frankly irresponsible.

It's all about tracking force, overall mass/intertia, degree of panning on the record, and amplitude of the material. Sometimes you'll hear damage, sometimes you won't. Frankly at 4.0g tracking force (typical for a mono Miyahima), the intertia of a high-mass arm (30g in the case of my Glanz), and material on the record panned across the soundstage to varying levels, it's a game of Russian routlette.

This wasn't scaremongering then, and it's not scaremongering now with a (welcome, with caveats) return to the same technology:

View attachment 130009View attachment 130009

Thank you.

Well, for me, being somewhat of an amateur in mono reproduction, the information and concerns from many sources on which way to go were a bit confusing and Rob’s assurances at the time (unfortunately) relieved my concerns. Just to set the records straight, his remarks were not motivated to directly sell me the Miyajima Labs cartridge that I ultimately purchased. I don’t blame Rob. I do take full responsibility though for my lack of understanding.

Now of course the last thing I care to do is destroy a beloved pressing(.) So with this, in the future, I most likely will choose a nice monophonic cartridge that offers some vertical movement to be on the safe side.

And though I probably easily have four hundred plus mono records, and truly appreciate the mono playback differences in presentation, I’m questioning how much of a mono purist I am

 

[BruceBW]

Sorry I did not read all 10 pages…. Anybody have a recommendation for loading the Infinity? A good starting point

 

[Vinylshadow]

Sorry I did not read all 10 pages…. Anybody have a recommendation for loading the Infinity? A good starting point

From the website: Tracking force range: 3–4g (3.5g recommended)

I just received my Infinity. I may use an AudioMachina V8 shim with it. Was told by the dealer they work great together and he uses the same.

 

[BruceBW]

From the website: Tracking force range: 3–4g (3.5g recommended)

I just received my Infinity. I may use an AudioMachina V8 shim with it. Was told by the dealer they work great together and he uses the same.

Thanks for the response, but I was looking for loading, not tracking force. I did find one site that recommended 100 Ω . and 10X internal is 60 Ω so I'll start in that range.

BTW Robin recommends playing it for a while at 4 grams then going back to 3.5.

Concerning the V8 shim. I do need to shim it to get it to mount properly on my Moerch arm. The back end is so long I can't get the overhang right without the orange shim. The back end hits the tapered tube before it goes back far enough. The yellow line follows the profile of the arm. Without the orange shim it would only go back to the red line before it hit. By dropping it down it can now go back to the green line.

The V8 shim looks interesting but I have 3 concerns.

1. it adds almost another 4 grams and this cartridge is massive as is. Not sure I could balance it
2. The explanation of how it works talks about being tuned to optimize a stereo cartridge, not a mono. If it operates in exactly the same planes that the stereo cartridge does, how does it help a mono?
3. $400

Because a stereo phono cartridge operates in two orthogonal planes for the two channels, and the two channels on a vinyl record are recorded and played back at 90 degrees to one another, so too does the V8 operate in precisely these two orthogonal planes.

 

[Vinylshadow]

Thanks for the response, but I was looking for loading, not tracking force. I did find one site that recommended 100 Ω . and 10X internal is 60 Ω so I'll start in that range.

BTW Robin recommends playing it for a while at 4 grams then going back to 3.5.

Concerning the V8 shim. I do need to shim it to get it to mount properly on my Moerch arm. The back end is so long I can't get the overhang right without the orange shim. The back end hits the tapered tube before it goes back far enough. The yellow line follows the profile of the arm. Without the orange shim it would only go back to the red line before it hit. By dropping it down it can now go back to the green line.

The V8 shim looks interesting but I have 3 concerns.

1. it adds almost another 4 grams and this cartridge is massive as is. Not sure I could balance it
2. The explanation of how it works talks about being tuned to optimize a stereo cartridge, not a mono. If it operates in exactly the planes that the stereo cartridge does, how does it help a mono?
3. $400

Because a stereo phono cartridge operates in two orthogonal planes for the two channels, and the two channels on a vinyl record are recorded and played back at 90 degrees to one another, so too does the V8 operate in precisely these two orthogonal planes.

View attachment 132040

View attachment 132041


View attachment 132042

Robin told me he uses 1k ohm for Miyajima's. I have not set up the Infinity/Shim yet but Robin says they work great together and he uses them. I have a Destiny but won't use a shim.

 

[mtemur]

The V8 shim looks interesting but I have 3 concerns.

1. it adds almost another 4 grams and this cartridge is massive as is. Not sure I could balance it
2. The explanation of how it works talks about being tuned to optimize a stereo cartridge, not a mono. If it operates in exactly the planes that the stereo cartridge does, how does it help a mono?
3. $400

Let me add the fourth concern:
It will alter the sound of the cartridge/tonearm and most probably in a bad way.

 

[Vinylshadow]

Let me add the fourth concern:
It will alter the sound of the cartridge/tonearm and most probably in a bad way.

I have not used it yet. I will ask Robin about it again but may not use it.

 

[Vinylshadow]

hi Marc,

9 months ago i did move on from my 2 Miyajima Infinity mono's and purchased a Sumile Mono. 3x the dollars and some better. loved my time with the Infinity Mono's and hard to beat unless one spends much more. my reason for changing to the Sumile mono is that with my very spendy high performance stereo cartridges, they were getting so good that they were equal overall to the Infinity mono cartridges on mono pressings. their refinement was enough better that the physical advantage to the mono carts was marginalized. so my need for the mono cartridges was lowered, unless i stepped up my game to the Sumile mono (or other higher performance mono).

to answer your question; the only place where you need to be cautious is playing a modern mirco-groove stereo record is with a 1.0 mil mono cart. for whatever reason micro-grove mono pressings play just fine with the 1.0 mil stylus. and, of course, the 0.7 mil mono stylus is good on anything.

as far as best performance; it's a little more complicated. in my experience a 1.0 mil stylus sounds better on almost 100% of deep groove early mono pressings. especially it is able to have much lower noise. the 0.7 mil is better on micro-groove mono records most of the time.....say 75% of the time. sometimes a stereo cartridge does sound better with later mono pressings. but mostly the mono is better. or different in ways you might prefer.

but unless you play stereo pressings with a 1.0 mil mono cartridge, there is no problem with harming a stereo pressing.

Hi Mike.

Excuse my rudimentary question but wouldn't playing lathe cut mono records on a stereo cartridge be played in stereo? Thus losing the "mononess"? Or did you disconnect the right interconnect from your phono preamp.

I thought the allure of a true mono cartridge was you hear different sonics vs a stereo cart. playing mono. Maybe I am misunderstanding but for your stereo cart to play mono equally/or better than the Miyajima Infinity is quite something!

I know that true mono cartridges do not transmit the noise on a mono record that a stereo cart can but I did not think you could get true mono sound from a stereo cart. Well, unless there is some connection alteration.

Thank you very much.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Hi Mike.

Excuse my rudimentary question but wouldn't playing lathe cut mono records on a stereo cartridge be played in stereo? Thus losing the "mononess"? Or did you disconnect the right interconnect from your phono preamp.

I thought the allure of a true mono cartridge was you hear different sonics vs a stereo cart. playing mono. Maybe I am misunderstanding but for your stereo cart to play mono equally/or better than the Miyajima Infinity is quite something!

I know that true mono cartridges do not transmit the noise on a mono record that a stereo cart can but I did not think you could get true mono sound from a stereo cart. Well, unless there is some connection alteration.

Thank you very much.

below i have copied and pasted an FAQ answer from the Ortofon Website that explains why a mono cartridge outperforms a stereo cartridge on mono cut records. basically it comes down to the mono cartridge eliminates some processing steps and has a mechanical directness advantage.

*******************************************************************************************************

Why should you use a dedicated mono cartridge for playing vinyl mono records?​

On a mono record the signal is cut only in the lateral dimension whereas a stereo record is cut at +/- 45 degrees into the opposing groove-walls, see the below figure:

A stereo cartridge will be able to replay stereo and mono records, because mono is a special version of stereo where the right and left channels are identical. While a stereo cartridge can play mono records it can’t achieve the same signal precision between the two channels. A mono cartridge produces one signal that is directed to both channels in the system. A mono cartridge playing a mono record produces a more forceful and stable image with a fuller, more impactful sound.

Another big advantage in using a mono cartridge to play mono records is the absence of response to vertical movement. This means that a mono cartridge is basically immune to the pinching effect which comes into action when the stylus is pushed vertically upward in very narrow grooves. Also the response to dust, dirt and wear is reduced substantially. The final result will be a clean and noiseless reproduction of the mono record.

The listening experience will be significantly improved when using a high quality True Mono cartridge for the replay of your mono records.

 

[Vinylshadow]

below i have copied and pasted an FAQ answer from the Ortofon Website that explains why a mono cartridge outperforms a stereo cartridge on mono cut records. basically it comes down to the mono cartridge eliminates some processing steps and has a mechanical directness advantage.

*******************************************************************************************************

Why should you use a dedicated mono cartridge for playing vinyl mono records?​

On a mono record the signal is cut only in the lateral dimension whereas a stereo record is cut at +/- 45 degrees into the opposing groove-walls, see the below figure:

A stereo cartridge will be able to replay stereo and mono records, because mono is a special version of stereo where the right and left channels are identical. While a stereo cartridge can play mono records it can’t achieve the same signal precision between the two channels. A mono cartridge produces one signal that is directed to both channels in the system. A mono cartridge playing a mono record produces a more forceful and stable image with a fuller, more impactful sound.

Another big advantage in using a mono cartridge to play mono records is the absence of response to vertical movement. This means that a mono cartridge is basically immune to the pinching effect which comes into action when the stylus is pushed vertically upward in very narrow grooves. Also the response to dust, dirt and wear is reduced substantially. The final result will be a clean and noiseless reproduction of the mono record.

The listening experience will be significantly improved when using a high quality True Mono cartridge for the replay of your mono records.

Thanks Mike.
I was aware of that and that is why I was thrown by your post saying " my reason for changing to the Sumile mono is that with my very spendy high performance stereo cartridges, they were getting so good that they were equal overall to the Infinity mono cartridges on mono pressings. their refinement was enough better that the physical advantage to the mono carts was marginalized. so my need for the mono cartridges was lowered, unless i stepped up my game to the Sumile mono (or other higher performance mono)."

I understand the desire for the Sumile Mono but I got the impression that you preferred your stereo cart. to the Infinity on your mono pressings. Was that a misunderstanding?

Thanks again.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Thanks Mike.
I was aware of that and that is why I was thrown by your post saying " my reason for changing to the Sumile mono is that with my very spendy high performance stereo cartridges, they were getting so good that they were equal overall to the Infinity mono cartridges on mono pressings. their refinement was enough better that the physical advantage to the mono carts was marginalized. so my need for the mono cartridges was lowered, unless i stepped up my game to the Sumile mono (or other higher performance mono)."

I understand the desire for the Sumile Mono but I got the impression that you preferred your stereo cart. to the Infinity on your mono pressings. Was that a misunderstanding?

Thanks again.

ok, allow me to expand my thinking.

ultimately the delta advantage of my Miyajima Mono carts on the mono pressings over my best stereo cartridges on those same pressings was no longer holding my attention, so i needed to up my game with my mono cartridge performance.

how might i describe my attitude here? i guess i did not prefer my Infinity Mono enough over my stereo alternatives to bother with it. was it better or worse? not sure i would put it that way.

and now i feel that the Sumile Mono has taken my mono listening to a higher level in areas where the stereo alternatives had previously pulled equal or ahead. so now i do clearly prefer the Sumile mono over my stereo alternatives on mono pressings.

in some areas the Miyajima was still superior to my stereo alternatives, such as energy, separation and space, but in refinement and tonality it was not. whereas the Sumile mono now is better in those areas and overall takes me further. i want to listen to mono's more than before.

it did take a $20k+ stereo MC cartridge, or the DaVa Ref stereo cart, to cause this change.

 

[Vinylshadow]

ok, allow me to expand my thinking.

ultimately the delta advantage of my Miyajima Mono carts on the mono pressings over my best stereo cartridges on those same pressings was no longer holding my attention, so i needed to up my game with my mono cartridge performance.

and now i feel that the Sumile Mono has taken my mono listening to a higher level in areas where the stereo alternatives had previously pulled equal or ahead.

in some areas the Miyajima was still superior to my stereo alternatives, such as energy, separation and space, but in refinement and tonality it was not. whereas the Sumile mono now is better in those areas and overall takes me further. i want to listen to mono's more than before.

it did take a $20k+ stereo MC cartridge, or the DaVa Ref stereo cart, to cause this change.

I understand. Thanks.

OT but have you had a chance to hear or read about the DS Audio Grand Master EX optical cartridge +GM equalizer/PSU?

Michael Fremer is now using it and The Audio Analyst Greg Weaver, who has an Etsuro Gold, just listened to them and was blown away to the point where once he has the funds, he will replace his Etsuro with the Grand Master EX system. In his review, Ken Kessler had the same reaction. And the ES-001 Eccentricity Stabilizer is supposed to make all playback sound even better.

It's a very pricey system. But from what I've read, it seems worth it in a very high end system.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I understand. Thanks.

OT but have you had a chance to hear or read about the DS Audio Grand Master EX optical cartridge +GM equalizer/PSU?

Michael Fremer is now using it and The Audio Analyst Greg Weaver, who has an Etsuro Gold, just listened to them and was blown away to the point where once he has the funds, he will replace his Etsuro with the Grand Master EX system. In his review, Ken Kessler had the same reaction. And the ES-001 Eccentricity Stabilizer is supposed to make all playback sound even better.

It's a very pricey system. But from what I've read, it seems worth it in a very high end system.

so far my exposure to DS Audio carts and phonos have missed my emotive target, but it's easy to hear the details. and i am so happy with my EMIA phono and dart phono that i am not really thinking of adding another phono pre alternative. any time you are operating at a top tier with cartridges you have to be all in to take them all the way. it's not just a cartridge, but an arm, the right phono, set-up and turntable. everything.

i am very very happy with my vinyl right now. but you never know.

 

[Vinylshadow]

so far my exposure to DS Audio carts and phonos have missed my emotive target, but it's easy to hear the details. and i am so happy with my EMIA phono and dart phono that i am not really thinking of adding another phono pre alternative. any time you are operating at a top tier with cartridges you have to be all in to take them all the way. it's not just a cartridge, but an arm, the right phono, set-up and turntable. everything.

i am very very happy with my vinyl right now. but you never know.

That is such a great feeling I'm sure. You've worked hard to get your system in place.

Yeah, you have to buy the Grand Master EX cartridge(not the "lower" models), GM Equalizer/Phono stage and its PSU for the full effect. $65k complete. The EES-001 Eccentric thingy is $6500? JR Bosclair uses it on his non DS Audio system and raves about it.

I'm starting from ground zero. No table etc yet so I'm contemplating everything. Don't know how far I'm willing to go for Nirvana. With my old ears, I may not need to shoot for the moon!

 

[Mike Lavigne]

That is such a great feeling I'm sure. You've worked hard to get your system in place.

Yeah, you have to buy the Grand Master EX cartridge(not the "lower" models), GM Equalizer/Phono stage and its PSU for the full effect. $65k complete. The EES-001 Eccentric thingy is $6500? JR Bosclair uses it on his non DS Audio system and raves about it.

I'm starting from ground zero. No table etc yet so I'm contemplating everything. Don't know how far I'm willing to go for Nirvana. With my old ears, I may not need to shoot for the moon!

exciting to be at that jumping in point, even if you don't quite shoot for the stars, only the moon.

best wishes on taking the leap.

 

[Vinylshadow]

exciting to be at that jumping in point, even if you don't quite shoot for the stars, only the moon.

best wishes on taking the leap.

Thanks Mike.

With the Sumile Mono, if you stay at a level commensurate with the level of the Sumile, is the tonearm extremely critical? I've heard great things about the Supatrac Nighthawk. Though I've only heard it play stereo records.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Thanks Mike.

With the Sumile Mono, if you stay at a level commensurate with the level of the Sumile, is the tonearm extremely critical? I've heard great things about the Supatrac Nighthawk. Though I've only heard it play stereo records.

i'm using the Glanz SH-1200S for my Sumile mono which seems like a good match as it's very stout....stainless steel arm wand. my friend jazdoc is using the gimbal bearing Durand Tosca. both sound very fine. i've seen positive references to the Supatrac Nighthawk but have no personal experience with it, so cannot say. the Sumile or Miyajima are heavy cartridges and do need a solid arm.

probably 12" arms with lightweight arm wands might not be a good match.