Moving away from box speakers: Diesis Audio vs Avantgarde Acoustic?

[sbo6]

As a former Apogee and many other planar speaker owner in the past I simply don’t think the room is right for planars because you really need at least a meter from the wall behind the speakers….same problem with Diesis, which I love the sound of (would probably own a pair if I could place them correctly). As such, I own Horning which want to be close to a corner, which works great in my room.

With adequate diffusion behind them, they'd likely sound exceptional.

 

[DasguteOhr]

Hi everyone,

I’ve read too many posts by Bonzo and decided to move away from the traditional box speakers .

Unfortunately, I don’t have a dedicated room. The system is in my living room. The room is about 35 m², but it is combined with kitchen, so the listening area is just about 20 m². There is no wall on the right side and a big window on the left side. I sit on a sofa which is next to the back wall, so there is no space behind. As you can see in the picture, the front wall is not straight and there is a built in cupboard on the right side of the wall. The distance to the current speakers (Sashas) is 2.85 meters, 2.60 between the speakers.

So far, I’ve narrowed my choice to Avantgarde Uno SD and Diesis Caput Mundi. But maybe Caput Mundi would be too much of a speaker for my room, and I should consider Aura? I have many questions and concerns, but hopefully I am moving in the right direction.

My main concern about Avantgarde is the complexity of the setup. My understanding is they are much more demanding to correct setup compared to Diesis. In case of Diesis, I am concerned about my listening area size and the base extension compared to what I’m used to (Sashas) and I don’t have any room for subs.

Any thoughts?

Thanks in advance,
Aziz
View attachment 139693

With the different acoustic properties of the side walls, a near-field setup would be more appropriate. This eliminates early reflections from the walls, which make the sound imprecise. Hard surfaces such as windows ensure that direct sound and reflected sound reach your ears almost synchronously. Angle the speakers more towards the listening position and move them closer, thus preventing the sound from arriving at the same time.
Just try it out.

It doesn't always have to be a different type of speaker, they have their strengths and weaknesses just like the existing ones. I would listen to the speakers you prefer maybe at people from this forum that own. You usually get to know nice people, which isn't a bad thing.

 

[morricab]

With adequate diffusion behind them, they'd likely sound exceptional.

No, you need at least a meter behind and little to no treatment. You will have too much bass cancellation as well…they need space behind not diffusion.

 

[morricab]

With the different acoustic properties of the side walls, a near-field setup would be more appropriate. This eliminates early reflections from the walls, which make the sound imprecise. Hard surfaces such as windows ensure that direct sound and reflected sound reach your ears almost synchronously. Angle the speakers more towards the listening position and move them closer, thus preventing the sound from arriving at the same time.
Just try it out.
View attachment 139776
It doesn't always have to be a different type of speaker, they have their strengths and weaknesses just like the existing ones. I would listen to the speakers you prefer maybe at people from this forum that own. You usually get to know nice people, which isn't a bad thing.

In a really small room, crossing in front of the listener works even better. We did this in a small hotel room for a show and it sounded much better that way as it minimised the first reflections.

 

[Ron Resnick]

crossing in front of the listener

minimised the first reflections.

Do you mean the first direct sidewall reflection, or do you mean the first cross-wall reflection, or do you mean both?

Changing toe-in will change the location of the first reflections, but how does changing toe-in minimize first reflections?

 

[DasguteOhr]

If you angle the loudspeaker more, you move the first reflection further back. Depending on the speaker's radiation characteristics, this means that the first reflection that hits your ear occurs later or is almost non-existent. This means that you move your listening position into the direct sound field of the loudspeaker and the diffuse sound field (room reflection) plays a less important role. It then makes sense to use absorbers to make the diffuse sound field even smaller what is behind your listening position.
P.S
I would not recommend this setup for a dipole speaker, as it would rob it of its strength (wide, large, deep stage)

 

[abeidrov]

Thank you all for the valuable advice. It looks like there is no consensus. What a surprise!
So far, what I’ve understood from the discussion, Avantgarde speakers are less demanding to the amount of space behind them, and both Diesis and Clarisys need more space to breathe, but still might work in my room. Maybe I should just flip a coin?

 

[bonzo75]

Thank you all for the valuable advice. It looks like there is no consensus. What a surprise!
So far, what I’ve understood from the discussion, Avantgarde speakers are less demanding to the amount of space behind them, and both Diesis and Clarisys need more space to breathe, but still might work in my room. Maybe I should just flip a coin?

I recommend your Wilson over those AG unos or duos. So might as well stick to them, and replace them with a used Verity Leonore that will let you enjoy powerful SETs like Lamm or Kronzilla or NAT or Trafomatic. Or go Stenheim with the CH

 

[abeidrov]

I recommend your Wilson over those AG unos or duos. So might as well stick to them, and replace them with a used Verity Leonore that will let you enjoy powerful SETs like Lamm or Kronzilla or NAT or Trafomatic. Or go Stenheim with the CH

This is a boring advice. I want to have some fun.

 

[DasguteOhr]

If you deposit the money with the dealer, you can listen to both speakers one after the other at home and then decide. A good dealer will do this for a few days, go on ask.. avantgarde acoustic moscow.

https://ci-group.ru/

 

[abeidrov]

If you deposit the money with the dealer, you can listen to both speakers one after the other at home and then decide. A good dealer will do this for a few days, go on ask.. avantgarde acoustic moscow.

https://ci-group.ru/

I already asked. No luck. They have nothing to display or audition. The delivery would take 5 months.

 

[DasguteOhr]

I would call at lauthertal ,germany, maybe they can arrange something for you.
Avantgarde
tel:+49 (0)6254 306 100

 

[Hear Here]

IME horns, while more directional than cones aren't any more directional than panels. In fact, horn drivers need more distance to integrate well at the listening spot,

Can't quite see how that can be true!

Horns are directional because most of their sound is squirted straight at the listener (that's the purpose of the horn shape) with very little energy leaving this cone of sound and being reflected off walls etc. Thus they are exceptionally directional proved by their small sweet spot and their very high sensitivity.

Panel speakers are just about the opposite with typically half their energy being projected backwards towards the wall behind them. They need this wall to reflect / harvest some of this energy - as I found to my cost with Martin Logans in my own room! Panels have no means of directing their energy towards the listener, so it's dispersed over a much wider area - hence wider sweet spot and much lower sensitivity.

 

[Hear Here]

This is boring advice. I want to have fun.

Yes and you'll get fun in bundles from your Unos! They are very room-tolerant and will deliver fun and excitement way more than your box speakers. That's why I bought my Unos in 2002 and why I'm still still using AGs. Also why Stereophile voted the Unos as their Speaker of the year at the time. And of course, they've improved considerably since then.

Don't toss a coin, but arrange home demos if you possibly can. Otherwise showroom ones, but make allowances for the differences between the showroom and your own room. Note that horns never demo well at audio shows because their ideal set up for home listening doesn't work in shows where "good" sound is needed over a wide area, rather than "great" sound over a small area.

I loaned my Unos to Art Audio at UK show several years ago and the good AG people who were exhibiting in their own room helped in setting them up. Mine were powered by Art Audio tube amps and many visitors thought the sound in our room was better than from the AG room, where they were using speakers too big for the room and powered by their own early electronics.

 

[abeidrov]

Yes and you'll get fun in bundles from your Unos! They are very room-tolerant and will deliver fun and excitement way more than your box speakers. That's why I bought my Unos in 2002 and why I'm still still using AGs. Also why Stereophile voted the Unos as their Speaker of the year at the time. And of course, they've improved considerably since then.

Don't toss a coin, but arrange home demos if you possibly can. Otherwise showroom ones, but make allowances for the differences between the showroom and your own room. Note that horns never demo well at audio shows because their ideal set up for home listening doesn't work in shows where "good" sound is needed over a wide area, rather than "great" sound over a small area.

I loaned my Unos to Art Audio at UK show several years ago and the good AG people who were exhibiting in their own room helped in setting them up. Mine were powered by Art Audio tube amps and many visitors thought the sound in our room was better than from the AG room, where they were using speakers too big for the room and powered by their own early electronics.

But Bonzo will put me on the ignore list…

 

[sbo6]

Can't quite see how that can be true!

Horns are directional because most of their sound is squirted straight at the listener (that's the purpose of the horn shape) with very little energy leaving this cone of sound and being reflected off walls etc. Thus they are exceptionally directional proved by their small sweet spot and their very high sensitivity.

Panel speakers are just about the opposite with typically half their energy being projected backwards towards the wall behind them. They need this wall to reflect / harvest some of this energy - as I found to my cost with Martin Logans in my own room! Panels have no means of directing their energy towards the listener, so it's dispersed over a much wider area - hence wider sweet spot and much lower sensitivity.

The purpose of a horn commonly at the end of a compression driver is to couple the driver to the air by matching the impedance and allowing significantly higher output (and enabling lower power requirements). It's not designed to squirt the sound at the listener, that is an artifact of its true functionality.

Also, and stated above, the rear wave of any dipole can be absorbed or diffused.

Finally, panels speakers are, well, panels and fire straight ahead other than Martin Logan with a slight bevel and still quite directional.

 

[Brucemck2]

Yes, although, like the Dutch & Dutch speakers, the Kii relies entirely on its DSP abilities.

Thus (if you look at it logically) the nice accurate Signal, that your costly amp was bought to deliver, is Processed (the S and P in DSP) and messed with according to what the measuring microphone says. The accuracy of the amplifier or in fact the speakers (if they were accurate without DSP) is irrelevant and ignored by DSP.

I'm far from convinced that DSP is a better route than getting an accurate system and doing a little physical work to get the room's perceived difficulties dealt with to an acceptable degree.

There’s no costly amp with Kii3 (or Dutch and Dutch which I haven’t heard).

Yes, there is DSP processing in the Kii3, but, there is also no other crossover component in the chain and the amps are directly coupled to each driver. I’ve owned a lot of speakers and they’ve got excellent sonics compared to other all-passives at similar (+/-50%) price points. (That being said, I appreciate both the Avantgarde and Dieses speakers I’ve heard.)

More important for this particular thread, they are exceedingly room-placement friendly, which is why I bought them in the first place given they were for a space where there was asymmetry in they Left/right corner loading and they had to be close to the rear wall.

 

[sbnx]

The purpose of a horn commonly at the end of a compression driver is to couple the driver to the air by matching the impedance and allowing significantly higher output (and enabling lower power requirements). It's not designed to squirt the sound at the listener, that is an artifact of its true functionality.

Also, and stated above, the rear wave of any dipole can be absorbed or diffused.

Finally, panels speakers are, well, panels and fire straight ahead other than Martin Logan with a slight bevel and still quite directional.

Avantgarde speakers do not use a compression driver. It is a textile dome at the end of a horn.

 

[morricab]

But Bonzo will put me on the ignore list…

That’s a feature…not a bug…

Do you have a chance to hear Odeon speakers or Horning speakers? Both are sensitive and both work well close to walls. Having just heard the newest AG UNO SD recently though, I can say it sounded really nice with a 300B amp.

 

[morricab]

Avantgarde speakers do not use a compression driver. It is a textile dome at the end of a horn.

The tweeter is a compression driver but the midrange driver is not.