MSB Select DAC II. The way every DAC on the planet should be built.
- Thread starter Blizzard
- Start date
By looking how their product line has evolved over the years, perhaps they have learned from past mistakes. Their latest lineup consists of 100% plug in discrete modules.
They have been building computers this way since the 70's. The reason why more manufacturers don't build their DAC's this way, is because they simply would rather have you buy an 100% new machine.
Let's look at Esoteric for example. I recall 1 member has recently upgraded from the K-01 to the K-01X. This required buying a whole new DAC. I can imagine he took quite a big hit in resale value selling the old K-01. Great example here. A few months old and selling for 1/3rd original price:
http://www.hifiplatform.eu/uk/2e-hands-hifi/43-cd-speler/1061-esoteric-k-01
And now 1 year after the K-01X was released, AKM now has a much better AK4490 DAC chip available. Their flagship product doesn't even have the flagship DAC chip. But their lower end ones do. This is because they are newer and released after the AK4490 was. So how long now till we see the successor to the K-01X? 2 years?
The Resonessence Mirus was released in 2012. When ESS releases their new state of the art successor to the 9018, Mirus/Invicta owners simply will have to swap 2 credit card sized boards, download a firmware and copy to an SD card, pop it in the SD card slot, and upgrade. Now you have the latest and greatest Circa 2016 Resonessence Mirus. That uses the chip competitors will have to replace their whole DAC lineup to offer new products with.
Now this is a smart way to build a DAC.
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It is looking more and more that what you are strongly endorsing,an MSB type "upgrade path", an illusion, based on first hand comments above, and in the end, is an opportunity to gouge customers when installing new modules..at mark ups that are hard to believe. Talk about being locked in.
So your saying the model like Esoteric's where you pay $20000 1 year, and the next year it's worth $6000 is better? Even if I don't want to upgrade, I would still rather have my DAC worth 70% it's original value for a few years, rather than 30.
If you buy a DAC that has an upgrade path, nobody is holding a gun to your head and saying "You must upgrade!" But it's nice to know the option is there. And it also helps resale value if your DAC isn't obsolete if you decide to sell and switch brands.
Your replies are NON SENSICAL. Nobody buys an Esoteric and gives a monkeys balls what it is worth the next year. And that goes for dCS, Meitner,
et al.
I know three audiophiles who bought Estoeric digital front ends around the same time, 4 years ago, and have NO INTENTION
of getting rid of them, trading them in, or "upgrading".
Defend your comments and ideas with facts.
They might give a monkeys balls if they can only sell it for $6000 when they paid $20000 a year earlier. What your saying makes absolutely no sense. But I suppose it makes for great bargain's in the used market place. That's one big plus.
Personally I'd rather just wait a year to buy a DAC from these guys and pay 1/3rd the price.
Okay, if what your saying is true, and upgrading is something most people simply have no desire to do, why would someone want to pay $20000 to buy an Esoteric K-01X right now when they can buy the K-01 (Which was $20000 a year ago) for $6000? After all if it was good 4 years ago it's still good today. Right?
non-sensical. i can't waste time discussing the fact that audiophiles all have different priorities. you can't see that. round and round.
not everyone is at their dealers doorstep when every new model appears.
The nottion that the new upgradeable MSB platform will hold its value any better than a throwaway piece of kit is highly speculative which will probably turn out completely false. I was personally into the Theta (upgradeable platform) game for a while and their upgradeable Casablancas sold for peanuts on the used market (still do actually). The idea you will get 70% of your $90K out in a few years is patently ludicrous.
Why would Blizz actually want to an ACTUAL MSB customer? It is much more fun to make stuff up.
I'm not specifically talking about the MSB select DAC. I'm talking about DAC's built in a modular upgradable form factor.
I'll use the example of the Resonessence Mirus again since it's a reasonable priced example at $5000. You buy it brand new in 2012 for $5000. 2015 comes along, dealers are still selling it for $5000. 2016 comes along and new DAC chip/analog stage upgrade boards come out. The Owner of the Mirus purchased in 2012 can decide to upgrade, or decide not to. 2018 comes along, this guy decides to take the plunge and upgrade to the new boards. Now he has the exact same DAC that's for sale at the local dealer, only he bought it in 2012. And it still smokes the competition at the same price range!
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Where is the popcorn emoticon when you need it 
I can see the modular design being a de facto standard and pushing it in that direction if it was a testament to better designed sound. But as Andre pointed out, that is not always going to be the case. Most of what the MSB offer in future-proofing your dac is mitigated by the expense of the upgrades so the depreciation of the DAC vs the expense of the upgrades is negligible for someone spending the dough. Being on the cutting edge is the priority not how much the dac is worth a year or two later
One of the chaps in our local group auditioned the MSB select against the Total Dac (and he was a former MSB top of the line guy) and he still feels the total dac is much better.
In this game unless chips are your thing I dont see a lot of value in upgrades personally...
I can see the modular design being a de facto standard and pushing it in that direction if it was a testament to better designed sound. But as Andre pointed out, that is not always going to be the case. Most of what the MSB offer in future-proofing your dac is mitigated by the expense of the upgrades so the depreciation of the DAC vs the expense of the upgrades is negligible for someone spending the dough. Being on the cutting edge is the priority not how much the dac is worth a year or two later
One of the chaps in our local group auditioned the MSB select against the Total Dac (and he was a former MSB top of the line guy) and he still feels the total dac is much better.
In this game unless chips are your thing I dont see a lot of value in upgrades personally...
Let me take a step further...
The guys that buy the product at retail or close to it dont care...or I should say all that much. Audiogon is a wonderful place since the guys that dont buy new can get gently used equipment for 50% off and be close to the newest performance after a few years and then buy said upgrade at a fraction. Kudos to them.
But the idea of upgrades is highly flawed when you have charge 7k for a new power supply. At most of the price points in the high end (yes I know I am guilty too) it is a poor design when you can't just replace the digital bit and have to replace entire guts to support a few digital improvements. Thats where it becomes a revenue generator and doesn't serve up to the quality it should be at RTS time of a flagship product. Digital does advance quickly but that is why my original question around replacing an entire dac is still served in this scenario.
I truly feel bad for those who were mislead and ripped off by this kind of business practice
The guys that buy the product at retail or close to it dont care...or I should say all that much. Audiogon is a wonderful place since the guys that dont buy new can get gently used equipment for 50% off and be close to the newest performance after a few years and then buy said upgrade at a fraction. Kudos to them.
But the idea of upgrades is highly flawed when you have charge 7k for a new power supply. At most of the price points in the high end (yes I know I am guilty too) it is a poor design when you can't just replace the digital bit and have to replace entire guts to support a few digital improvements. Thats where it becomes a revenue generator and doesn't serve up to the quality it should be at RTS time of a flagship product. Digital does advance quickly but that is why my original question around replacing an entire dac is still served in this scenario.
I truly feel bad for those who were mislead and ripped off by this kind of business practice
Beautiful. Now it is 2015 and the guy that bought his upgradeable Mirus in 2012 wants to sell his DAC (no longer current model). What percentage of the $5,000 retail he paid in 2012 does he get on the used market? 70% as you suggested? I sincerely doubt it. More to the point, will he get any more than someone that bought a throw away DAC and resells ofter 3 years? I'm just questioning the hypothesis that modular designs are better at keeping resale value.
The intention of this thread was to point out the advantages of designing DAC's in a modular, upgradable form factor. If MSB, or any other company doesn't honor their promises, it's not the fault of the modular form factor. Also, as I pointed out before, nobody is obligated to preform these upgrades if they don't find that they are worth the expense.
The 2012 Mirus is current today, and it still will be in 2018 with a low cost upgrade of 2 simple boards the size of credit cards. It was designed to be current for around 10 years with firmware updates and simple low cost boards.
