MSB Select DAC II. The way every DAC on the planet should be built.

[asiufy]

Alex, I think I need to clarify some things as well.

First, I NEVER commented about the sound, construction, or performance of the Select. Ever. Not once. I was discussing and commenting on Blizzard's statements about their business model and modular design not being the only way to go. Please don't put words in my mouth. I think MSB digital it TOP SHELF. I was at the CES the very first year they exhibited. Again to make it CRYSTAL CLEAR, I was addressing Blizzard's notion that MSB has the perfect solution. I was not debating the product, but the paradigm. And I exposed the fact that he had not even heard the darned thing

It should also be noted that you are far from an impartial observer here.

Second, I was told by a member here who attended the event, who spoke to an MSB rep and he was told the least expensive DAC was going to be discontinued. I DID say
it was unsubstantiated, I made that CLEAR. In retrospect, I should not have repeated as I had my doubts. Please accept my apology for that. It is clear that member heard incorrectly or misunderstood. Thank you for clarifyng this.

As far as buyers of expensive digital gear looking to dump them on Audigon or trade them yearly, that is preposterous and this is just box collecting and does not refelct
how the overwhelming majority of rational consumers conduct themselves.

I would absolutely LOVE to take you up on reviewing the Analog DAC btw. My system in the new house has really settled in and it would be paired with a Bryston BDP-2 file player.

Andre,

If we accept the fact that there is no perfect solution, either in digital or analog, we'd all be much happier

I don't always agree with Blizzard. Actually, this thread and his OP would be his very first contribution in which I could relate to and/or agree with. I do think there's merit in MSB's approach, and perhaps that's what he (Blizzard) was trying to put across in his post. Maybe the problem is the way in which he did this. Same as his other postings, he comes across as professoral, trying to school everybody into what's good and what's not. Unfortunately, a lot of other folks in this forum do the exact same thing, and that rubs me off the wrong way as well, but I just try to stay out of it.

The internet accepts everything, that's why I wanted to make sure people knew that the Analog DAC is not being discontinued. Now that you explained the situation in which you heard this, I know exactly where the misunderstanding happened. MSB did already discontinue the entry-level DAC V, the Platinum. And guess why? Because the Analog DAC, cheaper, was cannibalizing its sales, and it just didn't make sense. So, Internet, the MSB Analog DAC is not being discontinued

Of course I'm a partial observer. I put a lot of money buying MSB as a consumer, and now a whole lot more buying stock for the store. I do love the product, and I do think they have several worthy aspects, technically and commercially, that separates them from the others. I had dCS before, and I was simply tired of losing a ton of money when going from X to Y. Not to mention the silly cabling involved. First, Firewire, then dual XLR, etc.

Andre, people do trade up. I did, a lot of audiophiles do. Right now there are *4* dCS Puccini players on Audiogon (and we might take one in trade soon, so make that 5!), because a new model was introduced, and people just want the new box. Since dCS won't let them upgrade, people need to either rely on their dealers to do the right thing, or Audiogon it. I can't believe you can't see this...

You know what? You should stop by and pay that visit you owe us And we can discuss all of this and more, including reviewing the Analog, over some nice coffee (Bird Rock Coffee Roasters is a block away!).

Hope to see you soon,
Alex

 

[Blizzard]

Andre,

If we accept the fact that there is no perfect solution, either in digital or analog, we'd all be much happier

I don't always agree with Blizzard. Actually, this thread and his OP would be his very first contribution in which I could relate to and/or agree with. I do think there's merit in MSB's approach, and perhaps that's what he (Blizzard) was trying to put across in his post. Maybe the problem is the way in which he did this. Same as his other postings, he comes across as professoral, trying to school everybody into what's good and what's not. Unfortunately, a lot of other folks in this forum do the exact same thing, and that rubs me off the wrong way as well, but I just try to stay out of it.

The internet accepts everything, that's why I wanted to make sure people knew that the Analog DAC is not being discontinued. Now that you explained the situation in which you heard this, I know exactly where the misunderstanding happened. MSB did already discontinue the entry-level DAC V, the Platinum. And guess why? Because the Analog DAC, cheaper, was cannibalizing its sales, and it just didn't make sense. So, Internet, the MSB Analog DAC is not being discontinued

Of course I'm a partial observer. I put a lot of money buying MSB as a consumer, and now a whole lot more buying stock for the store. I do love the product, and I do think they have several worthy aspects, technically and commercially, that separates them from the others. I had dCS before, and I was simply tired of losing a ton of money when going from X to Y. Not to mention the silly cabling involved. First, Firewire, then dual XLR, etc.

Andre, people do trade up. I did, a lot of audiophiles do. Right now there are *4* dCS Puccini players on Audiogon (and we might take one in trade soon, so make that 5!), because a new model was introduced, and people just want the new box. Since dCS won't let them upgrade, people need to either rely on their dealers to do the right thing, or Audiogon it. I can't believe you can't see this...

You know what? You should stop by and pay that visit you owe us And we can discuss all of this and more, including reviewing the Analog, over some nice coffee (Bird Rock Coffee Roasters is a block away!).

Hope to see you soon,
Alex

Okay so as long as I say something positive about:

ADL/Furutech - Audionet - Audiopax - Auralic - Aurender - Avantgarde - D'Agostino - darTZeel - DEQX - ENIGMAcoustics - Evolution Acoustics - Hegel - iFi - Kronos - Kubala Sosna - Kuzma - Linn - MSB Technology - Music Hall - Ortofon - Solid Steel - VPI - Wharfedale - YG Acoustics

Your on my team? Noted for the future.

I noticed you also liked my Hegel recommendation on this thread as well, so this wasn't the first:

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...streamers-sound-different&highlight=streamers

 

[Andre Marc]

Andre,

If we accept the fact that there is no perfect solution, either in digital or analog, we'd all be much happier

I don't always agree with Blizzard. Actually, this thread and his OP would be his very first contribution in which I could relate to and/or agree with. I do think there's merit in MSB's approach, and perhaps that's what he (Blizzard) was trying to put across in his post. Maybe the problem is the way in which he did this. Same as his other postings, he comes across as professoral, trying to school everybody into what's good and what's not. Unfortunately, a lot of other folks in this forum do the exact same thing, and that rubs me off the wrong way as well, but I just try to stay out of it.

The internet accepts everything, that's why I wanted to make sure people knew that the Analog DAC is not being discontinued. Now that you explained the situation in which you heard this, I know exactly where the misunderstanding happened. MSB did already discontinue the entry-level DAC V, the Platinum. And guess why? Because the Analog DAC, cheaper, was cannibalizing its sales, and it just didn't make sense. So, Internet, the MSB Analog DAC is not being discontinued

Of course I'm a partial observer. I put a lot of money buying MSB as a consumer, and now a whole lot more buying stock for the store. I do love the product, and I do think they have several worthy aspects, technically and commercially, that separates them from the others. I had dCS before, and I was simply tired of losing a ton of money when going from X to Y. Not to mention the silly cabling involved. First, Firewire, then dual XLR, etc.

Andre, people do trade up. I did, a lot of audiophiles do. Right now there are *4* dCS Puccini players on Audiogon (and we might take one in trade soon, so make that 5!), because a new model was introduced, and people just want the new box. Since dCS won't let them upgrade, people need to either rely on their dealers to do the right thing, or Audiogon it. I can't believe you can't see this...

You know what? You should stop by and pay that visit you owe us And we can discuss all of this and more, including reviewing the Analog, over some nice coffee (Bird Rock Coffee Roasters is a block away!).

Hope to see you soon,
Alex

Hey Alex:

No worries at all. I think you might have gotten jumpy because it may have seemed i was somehow saying derogatory things about MSB. Not at all. As I said,
I am an admirer, and I know they are pushing the boundaries. You don't have to convince me they make great products. The notion that perfection exists, btw, never enters my mind, ever.

No, I was simply commenting that their approach is not the only approach, and it is simply not the best approach just because Blizzard says so. I also called
out BS when said it was priced at 90K because of the sound, and yet he had never spent one minute with this DAC. He also is incredibly over reaching with his MO of knowing what is best for everyone.

As far as trading in, trading up, trading sideways, if you are talking about the most well heeled of audiophiles where the end game is the merry go round..(round and round and round it goes!)..that accounts for a small percentage real world audio consumers.

You have a Ferrari/Masaratti dealer around the corner form you. I knew the manger there. Not a single week goes by when they don't get a mint car in with a few thousand miles on it. Boys get bored with their toys. I have known many of my audiophile friends for over 20 years, several since high school, and I can tell you they keep their systems intact for no less than 8 to 10 years. Of course, dealers and manufacturers LOVE the merry go rounders. Pays the rent.

Again, sorry for not double checking on which DAC was discontinued. As I said, I did not believe it myself. I hate misinformation on forums, and I certainly do not want to contribute to the problem. Thanks for the clarification.

How long are you in town..supposed to get back to almost 80 on the weekend!

 

[Andre Marc]

Okay so as long as I say something positive about:

ADL/Furutech - Audionet - Audiopax - Auralic - Aurender - Avantgarde - D'Agostino - darTZeel - DEQX - ENIGMAcoustics - Evolution Acoustics - Hegel - iFi - Kronos - Kubala Sosna - Kuzma - Linn - MSB Technology - Music Hall - Ortofon - Solid Steel - VPI - Wharfedale - YG Acoustics

Your on my team? Noted for the future.

I noticed you also liked my Hegel recommendation on this thread as well, so this wasn't the first:

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...streamers-sound-different&highlight=streamers

No, that is not what he is saying. He clearly states that despite the fact you are insufferable, he agrees with you concerning MSB's modular approach. It is not complicated.

And for the record, nobody says the modular approach is bad. It is good engineering. But it is NOT the only or the best approach because you insist it is.

 

[Blizzard]

it is simply not the best approach just because Blizzard says so.

No not the best approach because "I said so" more like it's the best approach because "it is". And it still would be even if I didn't exist. And we all know it's not the "only" approach. Talk to anyone trying to sell an Esoteric K-01 right now. They would be very familiar with the merits of the other approach.

 

[Andre Marc]

No not the best approach because "I said so" more like it's the best approach because "it is". And it still would be even if I didn't exist.

you are ridiculous. Really. It is because YOU SAY SO.

 

[Blizzard]

you are ridiculous. Really. It is because YOU SAY SO.

I'm flattered that you put so much weight on my opinion. But lets not under estimate the readers of this forum. I think they are intelligent enough to weigh the pros and cons, and come up with their own opinion on the matter.

 

[Andre Marc]

I'm flattered that you put so much weight on my opinion. But lets not under estimate the readers of this forum. I think they are intelligent enough to weigh the pros and cons, and come up with their own opinion on the matter.

Why should they have their own opinion. it is much easier for your to pummel them into submission again, and again, and again.

 

[Blizzard]

Why should they have their own opinion. it is much easier for your to pummel them into submission again, and again, and again.

If you simply acknowledged the blatantly obvious fact that this is a superior way of building a DAC, there would be no need for this to drag on and on. But I do understand that you have an obligation to the companies who's products you endorse. Many of them simply don't make DAC's in a modular form factor. Me on the other hand am brand agnostic. If you make something great, I can talk great about it, and if you make something poor, I can choose to point it out.

My advice to you is when it comes to situations like this where you put yourself in a situation where your advice becomes a disservice to the readers, you should simply avoid the thread. This way it's a win win for everyone.

 

[Andre Marc]

If you simply acknowledged the blatantly obvious fact that this is a superior way of building a DAC, there would be no need for this to drag on and on. But I do understand that you have an obligation to the companies who's products you endorse. Many of them simply don't make DAC's in a modular form factor. Me on the other hand am brand agnostic. If you make something great, I can talk great about it, and if you make something poor, I can choose to point it out.

My advice to you is when it comes to situations like this where you put yourself in a situation where your advice becomes a disservice to the readers, you should simply avoid the thread. this way it's a win win for everyone.

Alright, everybody, the thread can be closed now. The Great Blizzard Wizard has spoken. Modular DACs are the way of the gods. Everyone put your current non modular POS DACs on Audiogon and run out get yourself a Blizzard Wizard approved modular one. How fortunate we are that such a great audio mind is spreading his wisdom to the membership.

YOU MUST GO MODULAR otherwise you are SO living in the past!!!!!!! Do as you are told!!

 

[Blizzard]

Alright, everybody, the thread can be closed now. The Great Blizzard Wizard has spoken. Modular DACs are the way of the gods. Everyone put your current non modular POS DACs on Audiogon and run out get yourself a Blizzard Wizard approved modular one. How fortunate we are that such a great audio mind is spreading his wisdom to the membership.

YOU MUST GO MODULAR otherwise you are SO living in the past!!!!!!! Do as you are told!!

Typical answer from someone one who just lost an argument Don't give the credit to me, give it to the open minded engineers who build these products.

 

[Andre Marc]

Typical answer from someone one who just lost an argument

Spoken like a true unemployed Blizzard Wizard. I will be waiting with baited breath for your line of audio products to hit the market.

 

[Blizzard]

Spoken like a true unemployed Blizzard Wizard. I will be waiting with baited breath for your line of audio products to hit the market.

Excellent. Perhaps you can be the first to do a review

 

[Andre Marc]

Excellent. Perhaps you can be the first to do a review

Sure, why not.

 

[dallasjustice]

R2R discreet ladder DACs very much lend themselves to the "parts jockey" approach to digital engineering. It's a never ending process. The parts jockey found a slightly less inaccurate resistor; build a new DAC. The parts jockey added some new caps to the PSU; sell a new $7,000 PSU upgrade. The parts jockey claims a new oscillator measured at .01hz with 2db less phase noise; sell a new clock module. The parts jockey upgraded his crappy looking green dot matrix display to something that looks like it resembles a digital product made in this millennia; sell a whole new DAC. Give me a break!

Digital engineering is much more than parts. The best digital engineers know that the filters and DAC design is more important than the parts. It's not even close. I used to be an r2r DAC enthusiast. I was THE first customer in the US for the totalDAC. I upgraded to the totalDAC monoblocks. I learned that the upgrades will never end. Moreover, I learned that DACs ONLY matter to the extent the DAC makes the whole system significantly better. Any serious music lover needs to do his homework before spending $90,000 on any digital piece. I wouldn't be surprised if one of these uber DACs got beat in a blind test against some pretty inexpensive digital gear.

Alex, your comments about folks who spend "real money" just demonstrates that you don't respect the value of your customer's hard earned cash when the customer wants to buy something which costs less than "real money"; whatever that is.

 

[amirm]

MOD. Please do not speak about each other. It is against forum rules. Will be handing out infractions if it doesn't stop. Please be nice to each other.

 

[bibo01]

R2R discreet ladder DACs very much lend themselves to the "parts jockey" approach to digital engineering. It's a never ending process. The parts jockey found a slightly less inaccurate resistor; build a new DAC. The parts jockey added some new caps to the PSU; sell a new $7,000 PSU upgrade. The parts jockey claims a new oscillator measured at .01hz with 2db less phase noise; sell a new clock module. The parts jockey upgraded his crappy looking green dot matrix display to something that looks like it resembles a digital product made in this millennia; sell a whole new DAC. Give me a break!

Digital engineering is much more than parts. The best digital engineers know that the filters and DAC design is more important than the parts. It's not even close. I used to be an r2r DAC enthusiast. I was THE first customer in the US for the totalDAC. I upgraded to the totalDAC monoblocks. I learned that the upgrades will never end. Moreover, I learned that DACs ONLY matter to the extent the DAC makes the whole system significantly better. Any serious music lover needs to do his homework before spending $90,000 on any digital piece. I wouldn't be surprised if one of these uber DACs got beat in a blind test against some pretty inexpensive digital gear.

Alex, your comments about folks who spend "real money" just demonstrates that you don't respect the value of your customer's hard earned cash when the customer wants to buy something which costs less than "real money"; whatever that is.

+1

I can also add an example: in a recent, carefully conducted listening test a beefed up MSB Platinum IV DAC could not be distinguished from an EMU-1212 card + FIR filter (sort of DRC).

 

[Blizzard]

+1

I can also add an example: in a recent, carefully conducted listening test a beefed up MSB Platinum IV DAC could not be distinguished from an EMU-1212 card + FIR filter (sort of DRC).

Well you can't beat that form factor Do you have any more info on this test?

 

[Blizzard]

IMO every DAC that costs above $2000 should be built to last for a 10 year life span.

The 3 main items I think should be modular on a DAC that uses chips are:

1: The USB/Ethernet interface
2: Master clock
3: DAC chips/analog board

The rest of the DAC should be able to last at least 10 years before it becomes obsolete. It just will serve as a backplane/motherboard for the modules.

Now if we take a chipless DSD only DAC as the example, we can eliminate the need to ever have to upgrade the lowpass filter/analog section, although it still can be on a modular board.

 

[bibo01]

Well you can't beat that form factor Do you have any more info on this test?

We are OT on this.
It is all a question of differentiating between linear and non-linear distortions of DUT. Just let me say that through a "DRC" filter for both curve and envelope it is possible to perfectly match two devices, like the one I mentioned above (we have done it with Emm Labs too), excepts for their non-linear component.