MSB Select DAC II. The way every DAC on the planet should be built.

[Blizzard]

We are OT on this.
It is all a question of differentiating between linear and non-linear distortions of DUT. Just let me say that through a "DRC" filter for both curve and envelope it is possible to perfectly match two devices, like the one I mentioned above (we have done it with Emm Labs too), excepts for their non-linear component.

Well I'm 100% open to anything that can be preformed on a PC to make the hardware end as simple and pure as possible. Now that I've decided to go 100% chipless DSD, I want to learn all I can about filter algorithms that can be handled on software the make the best out of it. Jussi and HQplayer has really opened my mind to the possibilities

. Perhaps you should start a thread we can discuss software based filter algorithms in detail?

 

[esldude]

I wouldn't be surprised if one of these uber DACs got beat in a blind test against some pretty inexpensive digital gear.

Spend time on some forums where recording guys hang out. You see things like that with lots of gear. ADCs used to record music without processing and concurrently sent to several units. Prices range from $450 to many thousands. Depending on the particulars there is no clearcut winner, other times with different particular conditions people when listening without knowing have preferred some very inexpensive gear. Now may be it is just me, if a $10,000 ADC (or DAC) doesn't sound just plain out obviously better than a $450 unit then maybe the difference isn't much or isn't even perceptible.

Modern digital is awfully good. Pretty hard to stand out unless you tastefully muck up the signal to stand out. Of course I refer to listening without knowing what you are listening to rather than sighted comparisons. Again, if $10K or $100k isn't big time better, you aren't getting much for your money.

 

[asiufy]

R2R discreet ladder DACs very much lend themselves to the "parts jockey" approach to digital engineering. It's a never ending process. The parts jockey found a slightly less inaccurate resistor; build a new DAC. The parts jockey added some new caps to the PSU; sell a new $7,000 PSU upgrade. The parts jockey claims a new oscillator measured at .01hz with 2db less phase noise; sell a new clock module. The parts jockey upgraded his crappy looking green dot matrix display to something that looks like it resembles a digital product made in this millennia; sell a whole new DAC. Give me a break!

Digital engineering is much more than parts. The best digital engineers know that the filters and DAC design is more important than the parts. It's not even close. I used to be an r2r DAC enthusiast. I was THE first customer in the US for the totalDAC. I upgraded to the totalDAC monoblocks. I learned that the upgrades will never end. Moreover, I learned that DACs ONLY matter to the extent the DAC makes the whole system significantly better. Any serious music lover needs to do his homework before spending $90,000 on any digital piece. I wouldn't be surprised if one of these uber DACs got beat in a blind test against some pretty inexpensive digital gear.

Alex, your comments about folks who spend "real money" just demonstrates that you don't respect the value of your customer's hard earned cash when the customer wants to buy something which costs less than "real money"; whatever that is.

Michael,

Thanks for writing why you think ladder DACs are not good, in your view. Really appreciate it, much better than your previous statements.

As for your comment about "real money", you seem to be picking on me again, and still I don't know what I've ever done to you... Anyway, here's what I wrote:

"Everybody who puts REAL MONEY into the hobby cares how much they're going to lose in the long run"

So, how can you extrapolate from that, that I don't respect the value of my customer's hard earned cash? If I didn't, I'd be selling the "DAC du jour", and jumping to the next brand 6 months from now. We've stuck with MSB (and only MSB) for YEARS.

Since you're hell bent on picking on me, I'll make sure you understand what I meant: everybody that puts their hard earned cash, no matter how much, be it $1 or $1 million, cares how much they're going to lose in the long run". Resale value matters, audiophiles know it, and that's what I wanted to point to Andre. Absolutely NOTHING to do with your absurd interpretation.

Thank you, and be well.
Alex

 

[bonzo75]

I believe all designs sound pretty similar
Keith.

Fixt

 

[bonzo75]

DAC stands for Digital to Analogue CONVERTER they are meant to add or subtract, just convert.
Keith.

And speakers are meant to speak. Amps to Amplify

 

[FrantzM]

Spend time on some forums where recording guys hang out. You see things like that with lots of gear. ADCs used to record music without processing and concurrently sent to several units. Prices range from $450 to many thousands. Depending on the particulars there is no clearcut winner, other times with different particular conditions people when listening without knowing have preferred some very inexpensive gear. Now may be it is just me, if a $10,000 ADC (or DAC) doesn't sound just plain out obviously better than a $450 unit then maybe the difference isn't much or isn't even perceptible.

Modern digital is awfully good. Pretty hard to stand out unless you tastefully muck up the signal to stand out. Of course I refer to listening without knowing what you are listening to rather than sighted comparisons. Again, if $10K or $100k isn't big time better, you aren't getting much for your money.

I tend to agree with the above. With all due respect to anyone selling these I can't see how a dealer would come on public fora and shoot her or himself in the foot saying the differences between the $100K and the 10 K ones are not so clear but we are there and next year <10K model could well outperform today's 90K model if that is not already the case righ ttoday .Many of us hate the notion of "Blind" testing with a passion bordering of virulence but when the knowledge is removed you may be very surprised by how good or even superior, some less shockingly priced components are ...

 

[dallasjustice]

I think you are getting it!
Amps, amplify, 'straight wire with gain' to quote PJW.
Loudspeakers however produce relatively huge amounts of distortion no matter how well they measure.
Keith

I agree. My rule of thumb is to focus on whatever makes the speaker/room perform better. If I can't prove to myself how a component will accomplish this task, I pass on it.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Given the size of the market they're likely to find for a $90k DAC, the chances are pretty good they'll no longer be manufacturing this product at all by the time you need an upgrade.

Tim

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

I agree. My rule of thumb is to focus on whatever makes the speaker/room perform better. If I can't prove to myself how a component will accomplish this task, I pass on it.

+1. And it seems that most of the folks who believe in the audible contribution of every part, no matter how small, can't tell you how that is done, much less show evidence of the result.

Tim

 

[Blizzard]

I don't really believe dacs like the new MSB are purchased on grounds of sound quality, in that end of the market, one puma ship ,bragging rights and pride of ownership are the important factors.
I believe all well engineered over sampling designs sound pretty similar, and if you want a different sound choose NOS or something with a valve.
Keith.

I bet your opinion would be different if you sold them at your store.

 

[Blizzard]

We used to import MSB as a matter of fact, I thought the original designs were good, then they started charging preposterous amount for chip 'upgrades'....
Daniel Weiss, Bruno Putzeys, really solid engineering no BS.
Keith.

Yes I agree that Bruno doesn't deal with snake oil.

 

[Blizzard]

Why do I have this post in my email, but when I come here it's gone? Is someone deleteing posts every time someone is on my side?

This isn't the first time I've noticed this.

"Ok can someone please explain to me all the hostility towards Blizzard? He starts a perfectly normal and to me interesting post and so far has been called sheep, unintelligent, dumb, clownish and has reacted extremely well to the insults spewed by the angry mob, he either has nerves of steel or doesn´t give a sh.t

The MSB´s innards are a pleasure to look at, modularity for me is essential at this price point to justify the investment, although in all ernest I can´t help but to think about DAC´s as computers, who amongst us would buy a $90,000 laptop or PC knowing Moore´s law will kick in two years down the road? In DAC world things move a lot faster."

 

[edorr]

I tend to agree with the above. With all due respect to anyone selling these I can't see how a dealer would come on public fora and shoot her or himself in the foot saying the differences between the $100K and the 10 K ones are not so clear but we are there and next year <10K model could well outperform today's 90K model if that is not already the case righ ttoday .Many of us hate the notion of "Blind" testing with a passion bordering of virulence but when the knowledge is removed you may be very surprised by how good or even superior, some less shockingly priced components are ...

The reason I sold my $30K incumbent MRSP MSB DAC is in a blind shootout is was very very close (if not equivalent) to the $6K potential replacement. After a number of firmware upgrades to this new DAC since I bought it, I suspect is it at now a better sounding DAC than MSB signature with Femto clock. But to be even more brutally honest, the two $2K DAC that were part of the shootout were also close, and I could happily live with either one of them should I ever be forced to downsize.

 

[FrantzM]

The reason I sold my $30K incumbent MRSP MSB DAC is in a blind shootout is was very very close (if not equivalent) to the $6K potential replacement. After a number of firmware upgrades to this new DAC since I bought it, I suspect is it at now a better sounding DAC than MSB signature with Femto clock. But to be even more brutally honest, the two $2K DAC that were part of the shootout were also close, and I could happily live with either one of them should I ever be forced to downsize.

 

[wisnon]

Why do I have this post in my email, but when I come here it's gone? Is someone deleteing posts every time someone is on my side?

This isn't the first time I've noticed this.

"Ok can someone please explain to me all the hostility towards Blizzard? He starts a perfectly normal and to me interesting post and so far has been called sheep, unintelligent, dumb, clownish and has reacted extremely well to the insults spewed by the angry mob, he either has nerves of steel or doesn´t give a sh.t

The MSB´s innards are a pleasure to look at, modularity for me is essential at this price point to justify the investment, although in all ernest I can´t help but to think about DAC´s as computers, who amongst us would buy a $90,000 laptop or PC knowing Moore´s law will kick in two years down the road? In DAC world things move a lot faster."

Hahaha..."on my side"...Is this WAR, Blizz? ROTFLMAO

 

[Blizzard]

Hahaha..."on my side"...Is this WAR, Blizz? ROTFLMAO

I guess so and a 1 sided one at that. Anyone on my team gets zapped by an invisible laser in the sky.

 

[wisnon]

I guess so and a 1 sided one at that. Anyone on my team gets zapped by an invisible laser in the sky.

You are toooo funny.

Courage!

PS: You know you catch more flies with honey that vinegar, right?

 

[Blizzard]

You are toooo funny.

Courage!

Anyone hear of Narayan? it appears he's been wiped out of existence for supporting my view.

View attachment 23835

 

[Blizzard]

You are toooo funny.

Courage!

PS: You know you catch more flies with honey that vinegar, right?

Yes your right. I should probably follow this rule of thumb.

View attachment 23836

 

[wisnon]

You are the one dishing out most of the criticism!
You had better recognize...