MSB Select II arrival

[Mike Lavigne]

Maybe the line stage in the Playback Designs MPS-5 was a rather simple stage? I think it is unusual to see a really well thought out line stage in any DAC TBH.

sorry if I was not more clear.

the Playback Designs had a 'line level' only output, not any output stage with a volume attenuator. I was comparing;

#1-Playback Designs -> BHSE -> 009's

to

#2-Playback Designs -> dart pre input + fixed dart pre output -> BHSE -> 009's

in both cases using the attenuator in the BHSE.

#2 was easily better....and not the result I expected....at that point.

and yes, the dart pre is an 'ultimate preamp'. not the only one, of course. and pre's must be viewed in a system context.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

LoL

I know that Herve wire!

well....er.....I do use 'Herve wire', 11 meters of it........between my King-Cello tape repro output electronics (which Herve consulted with for the installation of the 50 ohm interface) for my Studer RTR decks, and my dart pre. the 'zeel' allows long runs without any issue so I can have those huge Studers on the other side of the room without any signal degradation. the 'Herve wire' is very tiny which allows me to tuck into the seam between my carpet and wood flooring in the front of my room.

for my dart preamp to dart mono block amp runs I use an even better 8 meter version of the 'zeel' interconnects built by Evolution Acoustics; very heavy and stiff.

 

[Legolas]

sorry if I was not more clear.

the Playback Designs had a 'line level' only output, not any output stage with a volume attenuator. I was comparing;

#1-Playback Designs -> BHSE -> 009's

to

#2-Playback Designs -> dart pre input + fixed dart pre output -> BHSE -> 009's

in both cases using the attenuator in the BHSE.

#2 was easily better....and not the result I expected....at that point.

and yes, the dart pre is an 'ultimate preamp'. not the only one, of course. and pre's must be viewed in a system context.

Indeed I understood that. My view is most DACs out their have a very simple line stage. For example I would suggest the Lampizator GG has an excellent line stage and unusually DHTs. And the Kassandre and the Aqua DACs, a lot of thought had gone into the effect of a good line stage has on the sound. DAC chip and digital architecture is 'only' part of the story IMO.

 

[wisnon]

well....er.....I do use 'Herve wire', 11 meters of it........between my King-Cello tape repro output electronics (which Herve consulted with for the installation of the 50 ohm interface) for my Studer RTR decks, and my dart pre. the 'zeel' allows long runs without any issue so I can have those huge Studers on the other side of the room without any signal degradation. the 'Herve wire' is very tiny which allows me to tuck into the seam between my carpet and wood flooring in the front of my room.

for my dart preamp to dart mono block amp runs I use an even better 8 meter version of the 'zeel' interconnects built by Evolution Acoustics; very heavy and stiff.

I may see him tomorrow at the factory. Like me to pass on greetings?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I may see him tomorrow at the factory. Like me to pass on greetings?

absolutely! he is the best.

saw him 2 weeks ago in LA.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

the RCA output module arrived today at work. got home and unpacked it and seeing it and the quality of it, I get a feel for just how serious a product this truly is. and going forward knowing that any interface or connectivity changes are so easily and properly solved and integrated it's easy to see that the promise of this product is real. swapping the modules took like 30 seconds once I turned the unit off and unplugged it.

so simple.

I had been thinking about this upcoming change, and pretty much decided to go with the RCA module (assuming they are very close) in any case because that allows for flexible future use of the single XLR input on dart pre.....and knowing I can always switch back if I like. well; the result is not close at all, the RCA module is much, much better. but.....I cheated. first; I went with the $31k Tara Labs Grandmaster Evolution w/HFX dual ground boxes right up front, and connected it all to my Tripoint Troy Reference grounding box.

so it's not just RCA verses XLR.

ok now, the emotional content has taken a step up. lower noise, more space, more refined texture and harmonic complexity, images and vocals now have increased real life content on another level. these are small but noticeable changes. the imaging has come some forward in the soundstage too.

I started listening about 2 hours ago, and as these interconnects have not been used since the Golden Gate left my system in January, and this RCA module has never been used, there is a noticeable ramping up of these improvements, and it's continuing to improve.

we will see if it stays on this course, or maybe goes through a rough period as we go forward.

in a few days I plan on putting the XLR module back in and see what I think about that before shipping it back.

we still have the Ethernet-USB question, as well as the optimization of the digital cable for whichever interface we end up with (currently using a generic USB), and then there is the comparison with my analog too. we'll see how close this gets to the analog now on the emotional connection scale.

so lots of fun stuff.

 

[Steve Williams]

I had been thinking about this upcoming change, and pretty much decided to go with the RCA module (assuming they are very close) in any case because that allows for flexible future use of the single XLR input on dart pre.....and knowing I can always switch back if I like. well; the result is not close at all, the RCA module is much, much better. but.....I cheated. first; I went with the $31k Tara Labs Grandmaster Evolution w/HFX dual ground boxes right up front, and connected it all to my Tripoint Troy Reference grounding box.

Mike

Many manufacturers only use SE. For me the best example is Lamm. Vladimir refuses to use balanced and states quite emphatically that his SE is better

 

[DaveyF]

Mike

Many manufacturers only use SE. For me the best example is Lamm. Vladimir refuses to use balanced and states quite emphatically that his SE is better

+1

I have had this discussion ---SE vs balanced--with many manufacturer's. Some swear by balanced and others SE. Like Steve says, Vladimir prefers SE...as does Ken Stevens. OTOH, Ralph Karstens swear by balanced and so does Victor Khomenko ( BAT) Coming from the pro audio world, I can absolutely see why balanced is required...but for home reproduction??? IMHO, the length of most cables in the home is short... the additional complexity of balanced and therefore the perceived benefits don't make sense.

 

[Steve Williams]

+1

I have had this discussion ---SE vs balanced--with many manufacturer's. Some swear by balanced and others SE. Like Steve says, Vladimir prefers SE...as does Ken Stevens. OTOH, Ralph Karstens swear by balanced and so does Victor Khomenko ( BAT) Coming from the pro audio world, I can absolutely see why balanced is required...but for home reproduction??? IMHO, the length of most cables in the home is short... the additional complexity of balanced and therefore the perceived benefits don't make sense.

I've told this story before but I use a 30 foot length of IC from my preamp to my amp. Before I bought the amp I asked Vlad about "why not balanced" He replied "why". I told him my concern for signal drop off with such a long IC. He said to me if there was any signal drop off he would refund my money in its entirety. For me the rest is history as his electronics in my system is magic. I will never use any other front or back end electronics other than what I have now

Vlad also said he never liked the sound of a Wilson speaker until he heard them with his electronics.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike

Many manufacturers only use SE. For me the best example is Lamm. Vladimir refuses to use balanced and states quite emphatically that his SE is better

I always prefer SE/RCA/zeel to XLR......except.....(1) with the Trinity dac you had no choice, XLR only, and (2) both the Aqua Formula and Nagra HD used output transformers on the XLR outputs only which served to eliminate the digital noise and so made significant positive performance differences in favor of XLR.......to the point of with RCA on those dacs they are at a different level of performance. so you have to investigate this issue with any dac and cannot assume. how noise in a dac is dealt with is significant.....there is always noise to deal with.

no issue with the MSB Select II in that way at all. the RCA output is superb.

my general observation is that single ended simply sounds less processed and the reproduction chain is less intrusive. balanced does solve problems, but better to not have those problems to begin with. lipstick on a pig and all that.

 

[microstrip]

I always prefer SE/RCA/zeel to XLR......except.....(1) with the Trinity dac you had no choice, XLR only, and (2) both the Aqua Formula and Nagra HD used output transformers on the XLR outputs only which served to eliminate the digital noise and so made significant positive performance differences in favor of XLR.......to the point of with RCA on those dacs they are at a different level of performance. so you have to investigate this issue with any dac and cannot assume. how noise in a dac is dealt with is significant.....there is always noise to deal with.

no issue with the MSB Select II in that way at all. the RCA output is superb.

my general observation is that single ended simply sounds less processed and the reproduction chain is less intrusive. balanced does solve problems, but better to not have those problems to begin with. lipstick on a pig and all that.

DACs are a complicated game in the SE/XLR audiophile debate. Most of the best DACs are intrinsically balanced - they digitally create + and - phases and each channel uses two DACs, delivering a balanced signal. The SE signal is usually created by an additional circuit that subtracts the two phases. The more "pure" and "less processed" signal is then the balanced! In this case what we are debating is if we prefer the sound obtained by converting balanced to SE in the DAC or in the preamplifier. As most of the time, it depends on implementation and each case is a separate case.

 

[Legolas]

DACs are a complicated game in the SE/XLR audiophile debate. Most of the best DACs are intrinsically balanced - they digitally create + and - phases and each channel uses two DACs, delivering a balanced signal. The SE signal is usually created by an additional circuit that subtracts the two phases. The more "pure" and "less processed" signal is then the balanced! In this case what we are debating is if we prefer the sound obtained by converting balanced to SE in the DAC or in the preamplifier. As most of the time, it depends on implementation and each case is a separate case.

I am not sure. In some designs the balanced is another secondary tap on the output transformer that gains the 6V as apposed to 2V. But to be fully balanced it needs 2 circuits, out and back. Some DACs use a separate board for the 2 balanced ends like early TotalDAC, and in RCA you get half the digital board (bad idea). Also some like Lamm and Audio Note question the integrity of balanced. How can a gain stage be truly balanced, as it would need to be absolutely identical and that is a challenge. Aqua La Scala uses 2 tubes, GG 4 tubes, and on RCA only the one tube, GG 2 tubes. How can 2/4 tubes be identical?

Also in many cases the DAC or amplifier is designed first as single ended, then balanced added on, not the other way around. Many variables, but it is worth trying both to see which (in each case) sounds better. It is not always consistent i.e. balanced always sounds better argument.

In most home environments cable runs are modest and capacitance not an issue. We are not talking studio or live concert cable lengths which require balanced.

 

[CKKeung]

A Select II owner friend told me that there had been user comments that the UMT V transport and Signature Data cd transport were severely outclassed by the Select II. Now that JMF and Wadax are launching their flagship universal transports with proprietary top-loading mechanisms (though still Oppo mods), MSB should consider to follow suit and develop a "Select Class" transport.
I heard that MSB is seriously considering this proposal.

 

[asiufy]

CKKeung,

Let me just say that indeed you heard right



cheers,
alex

 

[Jeffy]

Mike, I'm happy for you and I would love to have this dac as well. I think this is the best or one of the best out there. I can afford it, but I will not spend that much on a digital product. I think the high end has shifted to the very wealthy for sure. Come on now a dac that is 100,000.00 and one can buy a speaker for that. I think not. The most this dac should cost is 20,000.00.

 

[Priaptor]

Mike, I'm happy for you and I would love to have this dac as well. I think this is the best or one of the best out there. I can afford it, but I will not spend that much on a digital product. I think the high end has shifted to the very wealthy for sure. Come on now a dac that is 100,000.00 and one can buy a speaker for that. I think not. The most this dac should cost is 20,000.00.

Jeffy

I have the same DAC and while trying not to be too contentious, I really don't get the point of your post or even why you made it.

Howie

 

[Jeffy]

I think my post is very easy to understand, high end pricing is getting out of hand.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I think my post is very easy to understand, high end pricing is getting out of hand.

well, allow me to step back and consider if I want to take this thread down that road. since I don't i'll decline to respond......here.

I will ask a favor though. if you do want to get into that please open a different thread. and I would be happy to respond there. and no disrespect intended.

 

[Priaptor]

well, allow me to step back and consider if I want to take this thread down that road. since I don't i'll decline to respond......here.

I will ask a favor though. if you do want to get into that please open a different thread. and I would be happy to respond there. and no disrespect intended.

DITTO

I hope you are enjoying your SELECT while I suffer here in Montana. The weather is crappy and raining BUT as I always say, the worst day in Montana is still better than the best in FL.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

DITTO

I hope you are enjoying your SELECT while I suffer here in Montana. The weather is crappy and raining BUT as I always say, the worst day in Montana is still better than the best in FL.

thanks Howie.

I'm sure many/most of us would love to trade places with you.....I know I would. enjoy!