MSB Select II arrival

jkeny

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Mike's DAC as well as mine (Yggdrasil) are multibit ladder. They should not be affected by the noise shaping problems of sigma delta. Or does the ADC side carry through?
Yes, you both have gone a route that is probably easier to mitigate the noise floor fluctuation that seems endemic to S-D DACs, although I also believe that it's possible to tame the S-D DNF issues.

As for jump factor and palpability, that is also system dependent of course, not just a matter of digital or analog source. With my DAC in my system, these attributes are on a very high level. My system has weaknesses, but nothing significant in these areas. In a system less designed around jump factor, my DAC will seem to perform less well in this area.
IMO the stability of the reference is a matter of applying extreme hygiene in both recognising sources of disturbance & in treating these disturbances. As we see inter-chassis grounding, USB isolation, & other approaches all seem to point towards this signal ground stability.
I'm also of the opinion that understanding what factors are ACTUALLY of importance at the technically level will require or at least be accelerated by our understanding of how auditory perception works & what for instance, role noise has in our perception. For instance all real world sounds have noise backgrounds - not just random noise - reproducing this background pattern noise accurately may well be one of the switches that is flipped which our auditory perception evaluates as more realistic.

I've said it before that auditory perception is fundamentally a processing task, albeit a very complicated processing task which uses many different techniques to solve the problem. The problem is encapsulated in the phrase "poverty of the stimulus" - there just isn't enough data in the audio signals to reach a conclusive auditory scene (especially in the time required) - yet we are not aware of this lack of confidence in our determination, except in rare situations.

What this means is that some of the techniques used are statistical, probabilistic. For instance we immediately recognise the sound of rain or of fire crackling, even though each of these occurrences of rain has different spectral content. Similarly for fire. We seem to be able to analyse & store statistical patterns of auditory features with which we compare incoming sounds to. The whole area of noise would likely fall into this statistical pattern matching & for realism perception it needs to match our pattern expectations.

As I said, the dual approach of relating observations, like we have here, with possible psychoacoustic mechanisms & the other side of using known psychoacoustic mechanisms to predict or understand observations - both of these approaches together seem to me the best, most productive way to understanding.
 

Al M.

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Sure Al
So in 2017, there are no performance shortfalls digital with respect to analog?
We're all on a level playing field, any differences in format presentation are system synergy or mastering quality dependent?
I would agree w you up to a major point
But not completely

I have heard incredible performance from analog, and I have experienced the same from digital. Not on the same recordings, so can't give you a black and white answer.

Yet do I still think analog is superior in some aspects? Two years ago I would have answered with an unequivocal Yes, today I am not sure -- not sure at all.

In fact, while in the past I found analog to be hopelessly superior on orchestral massed violins, I now have heard incredible finesse, texture and convincing natural tone from that pivotal orchestral section on digital (in another system) where analog now has to prove to me that it can equal that, not to speak of exceeding it. And get this: the digital was plain *Redbook CD* (gasp -- on massed strings?).

On the other hand, I still have yet to hear chamber ensemble string tone (a few strings in unison) from digital that matches the very best I've heard from analog. So I am still gathering more data points.
 

PeterA

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I have heard incredible performance from analog, and I have experienced the same from digital. Not on the same recordings, so can't give you a black and white answer.

Yet do I still think analog is superior in some aspects? Two years ago I would have answered with an unequivocal Yes, today I am not sure -- not sure at all.

In fact, while in the past I found analog to be hopelessly superior on orchestral massed violins, I now have heard incredible finesse, texture and convincing natural tone from that pivotal orchestral section on digital (in another system) where analog now has to prove to me that it can equal that, not to speak of exceeding it. And get this: the digital was plain *Redbook CD* (gasp -- on massed strings?).

On the other hand, I still have yet to hear chamber ensemble string tone (a few strings in unison) from digital that matches the very best I've heard from analog. So I am still gathering more data points.

Al, with some effort, we can try to arrange an audition of your Yiggy in my system and do these very comparisons. That could be very interesting and help the long New England winter pass by a bit more quickly.
 

morricab

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Al, with some effort, we can try to arrange an audition of your Yiggy in my system and do these very comparisons. That could be very interesting and help the long New England winter pass by a bit more quickly.

I would be most curious on this one...
 

Al M.

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Al, with some effort, we can try to arrange an audition of your Yiggy in my system and do these very comparisons. That could be very interesting and help the long New England winter pass by a bit more quickly.

Yes, that would be interesting, Peter. Your analog provides some serious challenges, like the Holst choral LP which sounds outrageously realistic on your system, as I detailed in my latest observations on your system thread. It was a hard to beat experience. It was this LP that I had in mind, among others, when I talked about tone of small string ensemble in my previous post.

In the end I think that each medium will have its own reference recordings where it will shine best, and they may not necessarily overlap.
 

PeterA

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Yes, that would be interesting, Peter. Your analog provides some serious challenges, like the Holst choral LP which sounds outrageously realistic on your system, as I detailed in my latest observations on your system thread. It was a hard to beat experience. It was this LP that I had in mind, among others, when I talked about tone of small string ensemble in my previous post.

In the end I think that each medium will have its own reference recordings where it will shine best, and they may not necessarily overlap.

I think it is an indication of the progress that digital has made recently that we are even discussing the merits of each medium in such a comparison. Perhaps we are approaching the time when the choice of format will simply depend on the price/performance ratio and on which one's music collection is.
 

microstrip

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I think it is an indication of the progress that digital has made recently that we are even discussing the merits of each medium in such a comparison. Perhaps we are approaching the time when the choice of format will simply depend on the price/performance ratio and on which one's music collection is.

I think that it is mainly a question of changing mentalities in a small group of people. IMHO there was not such a large progress recently. Since I experienced the Metronome Kalista / C2A tube converter I felt that digital was on par with vinyl - each had its winning points, individual preference would dictate the choice. My preference in my system is still determined by the recording - with some recordings I prefer analog, with others I prefer digital.

The high-end is by definition the expression of our preferences in sound reproduction. In this aspect analog is much richer, allowing each of us to customize the system to his target sound, and particularly with the feeling of freedom - most of the time there is no easy direct comparison or changes can not be reversed :).

And yes, the music collection and previous experience with it matters a lot.
 

spiritofmusic

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Well, you can also incl me in the increasing category of people who have crossed the Rubicon w digital now on a par w analog across a whole range of attributes.
I still feel no digital does the "body" or "gestalt/in the moment" thing as well as analog, and jump factor predicated on greater sympathetic mastering of analog seems always more convincing on a good lp.
But digital ticks so many other boxes, and I'll have to work harder and harder to get my analog to truly surpass digital in future.
Hence my greatest upgrade dilemma of all that's upcoming for me personally, my final final tt/arm decision, it's one I really need to absolutely get right w my digital so impressive atm.
 

Blue58

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wow!!!

listening to the first cut (on Tidal) now. very vivid, dynamic, and raw (in the most positive sense). projects so much power. overtones go on forever...............

thank you!!

Mike, listen to this new Tony Allen album, The Source on Tidal.
It's one of the best new releases I've heard sonically.
Felt Kuti's drummer, sax and trombone.

WOW!
 

853guy

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Mike, listen to this new Tony Allen album, The Source on Tidal.
It's one of the best new releases I've heard sonically.
Felt Kuti's drummer, sax and trombone.

WOW!

Wow, indeed.

AAD, tracked live.

Incredible playing and feel.

Thanks for the recommendation, Blue. Much appreciated.

Best,

853guy
 

wisnon

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Mike, listen to this new Tony Allen album, The Source on Tidal.
It's one of the best new releases I've heard sonically.
Felt Kuti's drummer, sax and trombone.

WOW!
I'll check it out and let you know. :cool:
 

FrantzM

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Hi

Earlier in this thread, I dared to suggest that "Digital had arrived'. My comment were met with what I perceived as annoyance. Not hostility, just a few being somehow annoyed at the comment.

It is becoming clearer and clearer as the thread advance that indeed this is the case for many: Digital has arrived. Someone even spoke of having crossed the Rubicon...

Very interesting and to me welcome development.

Carry on people
:)
 

Mike Lavigne

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Hi

Earlier in this thread, I dared to suggest that "Digital had arrived'. My comment were met with what I perceived as annoyance. Not hostility, just a few being somehow annoyed at the comment.

It is becoming clearer and clearer as the thread advance that indeed this is the case for many: Digital has arrived. Someone even spoke of having crossed the Rubicon...

Very interesting and to me welcome development.

Carry on people
:)

Frantz,

maybe others have commented in broad strokes, but I have not. please don't paint the feedback from everyone the same way. many have interjected their own spin to things, which is normal.

and as my last words on this subject noted, maybe my analog needs to get better too. these references are not fixed points.

which begs the question can my vinyl get much better? it's a question. we are not dealing with fixed points here. these references move. understand I'm only referring to my experience in my system.

and my comments were describing specific very high rez files. nothing general at all.
 
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FrantzM

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Frantz,

maybe others have commented in broad strokes, but I have not. please don't paint the feedback from everyone the same way. many have interjected their own spin to things, which is normal.

and as my last words on this subject noted, maybe my analog needs to get better too. these references are not fixed points.

By no means do I want to turn your discovery/arrival of the MSB thread into a analog vs digital bloodbath. What you term "broad strokes" are too often used when some speak about analog. Digital for many doesn't compute. pun intended. it is clear from your observations and that of others that it does. The very fact that you can write
my analog needs to get better too.
considering where your particular analog systems stand (On Mount Olympus, no less) that says a lot about your current perception of the SOTA in digital. Not broad strokes but this says here that Digital stands pretty high... To the extent of having people reconsidering. To me .. that is Parity, Equality.

Please carry on.
 

microstrip

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Hi

Earlier in this thread, I dared to suggest that "Digital had arrived'. My comment were met with what I perceived as annoyance. Not hostility, just a few being somehow annoyed at the comment.

It is becoming clearer and clearer as the thread advance that indeed this is the case for many: Digital has arrived. Someone even spoke of having crossed the Rubicon...

Very interesting and to me welcome development.

Carry on people
:)

I find funny that an enjoyable thread built around a single great system and mainly one person very interesting emotional opinions can be considered as "Digital has arrived" - whatever it means ... IMHO the thread is just starting ...

And we should know that "crossing the Rubicon" is not believable in audio - I have seen people that have sold all their precious LP collection, turntables and accessories return to analog.
 

earlinarizona

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Our Roadmap For MSB Digital and How History Repeats Itself.
Remember the large format Hasselblad cameras that only professionals (equal to audiophiles) used. Then came digital and the quality was not there yet. As time went on it got better like digital and many pros dipped there feet in the water. It was convent, no developing and some changes could be made on the fly. iPhone comes along and the picture today from an iPhone 7 easily exceeds the older film and you can make all kind of changes and it is easy to use. Digital has gotten to that level with the MSB unit because the dam is breaking with people saying, some songs are better on digital, it is easy to use, no clicks and pops. Do you know many photographers using film? Profession film developers are all but got and digital is everything now. Clients demand changes on the fly after a shoot. Digital and Photography are playing out the same way.
If you were getting a great system by the time you buy a top turntable, full record collection and add a year to get everything right, digital will have surpassed it and I believe it to be sooooo true now. I listened to the Audio Note DAC on red book CD's and I would be hard pressed to say it is digital. Keep in mind they will have a Ladder DAC out soon and Perter Qvortrup said his current DACs are not on the Ladder DAC level.
For me the clicks and pops on vinyl take the "I am there" moment and crushes the listening experience. When is the last time a 100 piece orchestra added two extra musicians? One just does pops, and the other just does clicks. NONE. It is a mood killer. On top of that why get up all the time as I did for years to change the record when you can get the same sound using your iPad to control the DAC. Times are changing. Right now vinyl is selling because it is retro and young kids can say they are "Old School" to be cool in my opinion. Remember the British article that said college kids had never opened or played over 50% of the vinyl they bought. The owner of my local vinyl shop said exactly the same things of his college customers.
Now as Mike has graciously shared all of his experiences, we can all agree the differences between digital and final is closing. Lets say a few months from now MSB comes out with new Hybrid Modules, new Renderer module or new Quad USB module that produce even more real sound. The gap is all but closed except for a few hard core guys just like there used to be film holdouts. Even my cousin who had 4 cameras and one large format uses only digital now.
If someone was starting from scratch or doing a end of life system I would say DAC and tape and pass the vinyl by.
In closing this is a very healthy and lively forum with so many opinions.
 

PeterA

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I find funny that an enjoyable thread built around a single great system and mainly one person very interesting emotional opinions can be considered as "Digital has arrived" - whatever it means ... IMHO the thread is just starting ...

And we should know that "crossing the Rubicon" is not believable in audio - I have seen people that have sold all their precious LP collection, turntables and accessories return to analog.

IMHO, the phrase "crossing the Rubicon" in this context is a bit hyperbolic and lacks some introspection.
 

FrantzM

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I find funny that an enjoyable thread built around a single great system and mainly one person very interesting emotional opinions can be considered as "Digital has arrived" - whatever it means ... IMHO the thread is just starting ...

And we should know that "crossing the Rubicon" is not believable in audio - I have seen people that have sold all their precious LP collection, turntables and accessories return to analog.

Different strokes and all that ...

And yet here you are building a system, if I am to believe your present signature, around digital...
 

FrantzM

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IMHO, the phrase "crossing the Rubicon" in this context is a bit hyperbolic and lacks some introspection.

Peter

That is the man's opinion. How can you infer from it a lack of introspection ?
 

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