Must have adjustments for an arm to be SOTA

[Brian Walsh]

Don C, you don't know me, or you wouldn't say such things. I have worked extremely hard over the years to earn my reputation as one of the top setup guys in the nation. My track record proves it, and my technical background enables me to take on difficult projects that most others would say can't be done, and I do them. I really give a damn about customers. It goes way beyond a sale. I am very patient but know when to call bullshit.

 

[Don C]

Don C, you don't know me, or you wouldn't say such things. I have worked extremely hard over the years to earn my reputation as one of the top setup guys in the nation. My track record proves it, and my technical background enables me to take on difficult projects that most others would say can't be done, and I do them. I really give a damn about customers. It goes way beyond a sale. I am very patient but know when to call bullshit.

Sorry but I do not believe in set up men. HP and Valin have setup men that tune their arms, to the setup man's ear not theirs.

I only trust my ears for what I feel is correct!

I just do not feel a setup man can spend a few hours at the customer home and perfectly tune in an arm.

It takes many hours, over months of listening, to many, many Lps, per my years of experience.

The customer has to know how to do it himself.

Sadly most do not, and use people like you, to get close.

 

[Brian Walsh]

Sorry but I do not believe in set up men. HP and Valin have setup men that tune their arms, to the setup man's ear not theirs.

I don't think HP has one Valin does his own setup. So does Fremer.

I only trust my ears for what I feel is correct!

I just do not feel a setup man can spend a few hours at the customer home and perfectly tune in an arm.

It takes many hours, over months of listening, to many, many Lps, per my years of experience.

The customer has to know how to do it himself.

Contrary to your assertions, he doesn't. People have a lot better things to do, and they just want to sit back and enjoy music.

Sadly most do not, and use people like you, to get close.

In your case, no cigar.

Sorry my karma ran over your dogma.

 

[Don C]

Peter A

I owned the SME IV and V.

A few suggestions for your SME.

With the IV I used an inside micrometer between the arm base and the bottom of the arm to aid in height adjustment.

With screw in post on the IV, and a small knob to turn on the V, it worked fairly well. I know you used cards that gave you some sonic changes, but that is not fine enough IMO.

The azimuth could be adjusted by putting washers of varying thicknesses on the mounting screws under the head shell for tilt in either direction.

You should measure the thickness of the washers. It is time consuming but may be worth the effort IMO.

One advantage with the SME fixed two hole mounting is you can take off and re-install the cartridge with out any realignment.

 

[Don C]

I don't think HP has one Valin does his own setup. So does Fremer.


Contrary to your assertions, he doesn't. People have a lot better things to do, and they just want to sit back and enjoy music.


In your case, no cigar.

Sorry my karma ran over your dogma.

Valin has said on the Absolute Sound Arm setup guide that he has a setup man, and so did HP back in the 90's! Most of HP's listening experience was under a pot high!

They do can not do arm set up. Their views are worthless. They get free equipment for years, and buy none of their own.

I never said Fremer had a setup man.

long term adjustment is just listening, and an occasional adjustment, not really big time consumption.

I guess you are just not as much of a perfectionist as me. I will leave it at that.

 

[Brian Walsh]

I guess you are just not as much of a perfectionist as me. I will leave it at that.

Reading is fundamental. Delusion is grandeur.

 

[PeterA]

Peter A

I owned the SME IV and V.

A few suggestions for your SME.

With the IV I used an inside micrometer between the arm base and the bottom of the arm to aid in height adjustment.

With screw in post on the IV, and a small knob to turn on the V, it worked fairly well. I know you used cards that gave you some sonic changes, but that is not fine enough IMO.

The azimuth could be adjusted by putting washers of varying thicknesses on the mounting screws under the head shell for tilt in either direction.

You should measure the thickness of the washers. It is time consuming but may be worth the effort IMO.

One advantage with the SME fixed two hole mounting is you can take off and re-install the cartridge with out any realignment.

Don, My experience is very different from yours. I could not settle for a fixed SRA setting for 80% of my LPs. Fremer seems to agree with you on this, but I find it well worth the effort to make adjustments for each LP. I use the scale printed on the side of the SME paper protractor to measure the distance between the top of the arm board and the bottom of the arm rest. This is extremely accurate. It needs to be because I adjust VTA for each record and write down the proper setting for repeated use later. LPs of the same thickness have different ideal SRA so I listen to each record for a dynamics and also for a specific relationship between a note's fundamental and its harmonics and then know which setting I prefer. This does NOT correspond to record thickness. I am trying to match the original cutting angle when the record was produced. This process is time consuming and I adjust to within .5mm for my entire collection. Keep in mind, with a 12" arm, a .5mm change in height corresponds to less than a 1/4 degree in SRA. TINY but clearly audible on a transparent system. This is why I disagree with Fremer's 92 degree SRA setting for one's entire collection. I have heard the difference tiny changes to SRA can make.

The range using my measurement system is 16mm to 18.5mm, so there are six different settings, at .5mm increments. Most fall between 16.5 and 17.5. Unfortunately, the SME arm does not have as convenient an arm height adjustment as some tower/offset designs with calibrated, rotating dials and simple set screws, but the mounting to the armboard is extremely rigid, and this is the trade off that SME decided to make. With changes of more than 1mm, I also slightly adjust VTF for each record. I don't bother with overhang adjustments once set for the average 17.25 mm arm height.

Most people think this is excessive, but it is worth it to me. Just yesterday, I took over a few of my LPs to a friend's house because I wanted to hear his new Technics SP10 Mk3 with SME V-12 arm and AirTight Supreme cartridge. We adjusted his arm to play an LP of Mozart's string quintets. My notations showed that on my table the arm height distance is 16mm. It sounded good in his new rig. Then we played my copy of Sheffield's Drum Track. This notation says 16.5 mm. Out of laziness and curiosity, we left the arm at 16mm. The kick drums were sluggish, the cymbals were splashy/whitish, dynamics were less pronounced and the gap in timing between the notes' fundamentals and their harmonics was too long. We raised the arm .5mm, to correspond with my notations of how this record sounds best on my system, and viola, everything sounded better and my friend was very pleased. Of course he has seen me make these adjustments in my system for years and has heard the remarkable differences between tiny adjustments to arm height.

I tell this anecdote only to illustrate that I agree with you that adjustments are very important, the listener, if a serious hobbyist, may want to learn how to make them himself. The effort can be very worthwhile. Yes, it takes experience to learn what one is doing. But this is a hobby and that can be a big part of it. I understand Brian's comments also. There are many customers who simply are not interested in spending the time to do this stuff. They want the services of a good dealer and Brian seems to be able to provide this service and has earned a strong customer following. I wish there were more such dealers.

My good friend Al M. who only has digital in his system has learned to appreciate what vinyl has to offer from hearing some good analog. I have demonstrated for him just what a .5mm change in arm height can do to his beloved string quartets. He was astonished at the difference and commented that if a reviewer does not go to this degree of effort, how can he truly know what a cartridge or tonearm is capable of sounding like? It was an astute comment.

I don't understand your comment about "cards that gave you some sonic changes". You must have me confused with someone else. I have never tried any such thing.

I am not interested in putting washers at the mounting screws on my SME headshell. I have looked at my styli under extreme magnification, and they are mounted correctly. They also sound great. Incidentally, one can very slightly adjust the tilt of the arm at the arm base before tightening the locking nuts around the arm pillar. This adjusts azimuth, though the arm will be slightly out of plumb. There is a small amount of slop even though the arm collar is spring loaded. I use a tiny spirit level at the headshell to make sure that it is level before locking down the arm pillar. This is the same method that SME founder Alastair Robertson Aikman used, but did not write about. I would like some way to adjust azimuth, but SME does not offer it on this arm.

Zenith is an interesting adjustment. People don't think the SME arms allow for this either. However, the cartridge mounting holes are slightly larger in diameter than are the mounting screws, so the cartridge can be slightly rotated around the stylus zenith for proper alignment. I actually find that this is the most useful feature of my custom made MINT LP Protractor. It has inscribed alignment lines at the two null points so that one can align the cantilever, rather than the cartridge body, properly at the null points. This is much more accurate. Even though the SME headshell has two mounting holes and not slots, I would not consider simply re-installing a cartridge without also confirming alignment. That is just sloppy because there is enough play for the zenith angle to have rotated.

I also find the SME sled mounting feature for adjusting overhang to be much easier than slots in a headshell because of the zenith issue. The SME solution seems much more stable and accurate, and convenient. This is an ingenious solution which solves both the issues of a rigid mount to the arm board, and extremely precise and stable adjustability.

Finally, I have done much experimenting between dynamic and static, (or a combination of the two), tracking force with my various SME arms. Dynamic sounds better to me in my system. The various additional weights for the counterweight sled also allow one to move the sled as far forward and close to the pivot point of the arm as possible given different cartridge weights. This lowers the moment of inertia of the arm and improves sonics. I have tried the damping trough and prefer it with out any damping.

The SME V-12 is certainly not perfect. I would like fewer internal wire connections, for instance. I am sure that other arms sound better and have more adjustments and they can be made more easily and repeatedly. But, it is an excellent arm and if properly set up, it can sound pretty amazing.

BTW, I think Andre Jennings is the gentleman who sets up Jon Valin's cartridges. They are good friends and I think they live near each other.

 

[Don C]

Don, My experience is very different from yours. I could not settle for a fixed SRA setting for 80% of my LPs. Fremer seems to agree with you on this, but I find it well worth the effort to make adjustments for each LP. I use the scale printed on the side of the SME paper protractor to measure the distance between the top of the arm board and the bottom of the arm rest. This is extremely accurate. It needs to be because I adjust VTA for each record and write down the proper setting for repeated use later. LPs of the same thickness have different ideal SRA so I listen to each record for a dynamics and also for a specific relationship between a note's fundamental and its harmonics and then know which setting I prefer. This does NOT correspond to record thickness. I am trying to match the original cutting angle when the record was produced. This process is time consuming and I adjust to within .5mm for my entire collection. Keep in mind, with a 12" arm, a .5mm change in height corresponds to less than a 1/4 degree in SRA. TINY but clearly audible on a transparent system. This is why I disagree with Fremer's 92 degree SRA setting for one's entire collection. I have heard the difference tiny changes to SRA can make.

The range using my measurement system is 16mm to 18.5mm, so there are six different settings, at .5mm increments. Most fall between 16.5 and 17.5. Unfortunately, the SME arm does not have as convenient an arm height adjustment as some tower/offset designs with calibrated, rotating dials and simple set screws, but the mounting to the armboard is extremely rigid, and this is the trade off that SME decided to make. With changes of more than 1mm, I also slightly adjust VTF for each record. I don't bother with overhang adjustments once set for the average 17.25 mm arm height.

Most people think this is excessive, but it is worth it to me. Just yesterday, I took over a few of my LPs to a friend's house because I wanted to hear his new Technics SP10 Mk3 with SME V-12 arm and AirTight Supreme cartridge. We adjusted his arm to play an LP of Mozart's string quintets. My notations showed that on my table the arm height distance is 16mm. It sounded good in his new rig. Then we played my copy of Sheffield's Drum Track. This notation says 16.5 mm. Out of laziness and curiosity, we left the arm at 16mm. The kick drums were sluggish, the cymbals were splashy/whitish, dynamics were less pronounced and the gap in timing between the notes' fundamentals and their harmonics was too long. We raised the arm .5mm, to correspond with my notations of how this record sounds best on my system, and viola, everything sounded better and my friend was very pleased. Of course he has seen me make these adjustments in my system for years and has heard the remarkable differences between tiny adjustments to arm height.

I tell this anecdote only to illustrate that I agree with you that adjustments are very important, the listener, if a serious hobbyist, may want to learn how to make them himself. The effort can be very worthwhile. Yes, it takes experience to learn what one is doing. But this is a hobby and that can be a big part of it. I understand Brian's comments also. There are many customers who simply are not interested in spending the time to do this stuff. They want the services of a good dealer and Brian seems to be able to provide this service and has earned a strong customer following. I wish there were more such dealers.

My good friend Al M. who only has digital in his system has learned to appreciate what vinyl has to offer from hearing some good analog. I have demonstrated for him just what a .5mm change in arm height can do to his beloved string quartets. He was astonished at the difference and commented that if a reviewer does not go to this degree of effort, how can he truly know what a cartridge or tonearm is capable of sounding like? It was an astute comment.

I don't understand your comment about "cards that gave you some sonic changes". You must have me confused with someone else. I have never tried any such thing.

I am not interested in putting washers at the mounting screws on my SME headshell. I have looked at my styli under extreme magnification, and they are mounted correctly. They also sound great. Incidentally, one can very slightly adjust the tilt of the arm at the arm base before tightening the locking nuts around the arm pillar. This adjusts azimuth, though the arm will be slightly out of plumb. There is a small amount of slop even though the arm collar is spring loaded. I use a tiny spirit level at the headshell to make sure that it is level before locking down the arm pillar. This is the same method that SME founder Alastair Robertson Aikman used, but did not write about. I would like some way to adjust azimuth, but SME does not offer it on this arm.

Zenith is an interesting adjustment. People don't think the SME arms allow for this either. However, the cartridge mounting holes are slightly larger in diameter than are the mounting screws, so the cartridge can be slightly rotated around the stylus zenith for proper alignment. I actually find that this is the most useful feature of my custom made MINT LP Protractor. It has inscribed alignment lines at the two null points so that one can align the cantilever, rather than the cartridge body, properly at the null points. This is much more accurate. Even though the SME headshell has two mounting holes and not slots, I would not consider simply re-installing a cartridge without also confirming alignment. That is just sloppy because there is enough play for the zenith angle to have rotated.

I also find the SME sled mounting feature for adjusting overhang to be much easier than slots in a headshell because of the zenith issue. The SME solution seems much more stable and accurate, and convenient. This is an ingenious solution which solves both the issues of a rigid mount to the arm board, and extremely precise and stable adjustability.

Finally, I have done much experimenting between dynamic and static, (or a combination of the two), tracking force with my various SME arms. Dynamic sounds better to me in my system. The various additional weights for the counterweight sled also allow one to move the sled as far forward and close to the pivot point of the arm as possible given different cartridge weights. This lowers the moment of inertia of the arm and improves sonics. I have tried the damping trough and prefer it with out any damping.

The SME V-12 is certainly not perfect. I would like fewer internal wire connections, for instance. I am sure that other arms sound better and have more adjustments and they can be made more easily and repeatedly. But, it is an excellent arm and if properly set up, it can sound pretty amazing.

BTW, I think Andre Jennings is the gentleman who sets up Jon Valin's cartridges. They are good friends and I think they live near each other.

View attachment 25867

Fremer is late to the game on 92 degrees, that came from an article in Audio magazine from 1981 by Jon Risch.

When he got 92 degree crazy and found a big sonic differences, you can toss out all his older reviews of cartridges.

Fremer was a DJ and comedian before he was a reviewer, and has said his writings are entertainment. He is not a technical expert.

Fremer also uses a crazy complex camera setup to get to 92 degrees.

looking at the stylus azimuth with a magnifier, that does not work.

I have tried that, and it looked perfect, but did not sound right.

I also set the stylus on a the back of a CD on the platter, and looked at the stylus reflection, and it looked perfect, but did not sound right. Fine azimuth adjustment showed it was off.

Azimuth varies between lp, due to the cutter head azimuth, and makes as big a difference as SRA! Without a azimuth adjustment you are not SOTA!

You can not use visual methods, you must "tune by ear". You can not see the cut of the diamond, or the seating in the groove, it is just too small.

The stylus-groove is a microscopic world.

There is interplay between the different adjustments.

You make one SRA adjustment and think perfection! Then you check, and adjust the other settings, and go back and readjust SRA. WOW it is even better than before!


FYI
http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/vinyl/messages/1240.html

http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/vinyl/messages/27755.html

Say you keep track of the arm height for each record. You have to disregard the measurements as the suspension ages, seasonal room temperature changes, stylus wear, and cartridge changes.

Changing the height(SRA) changes the VTF. And the horizontal alignment also changes. Do you also set those, and then reset the SRA again for each Lp?
There is interplay between various adjustments

Set the arm for the "mean" of your record collection, enjoy the music, without thinking about the equipment as you play each lp!

Listen to several Lps between an arm change.

Resetting the arm for each record is MADNESS!

The recording quality varies much, more from Lp to Lp, than SRA!

Once my arm is setup I go for months and months, without a change, and I have great playback 80% of the time.

 

[PeterA]

Thank you for all of your advice, Don. I appreciate it. I think we agree on most of this stuff. The SME arms that you and I have owned are not SOTA. Adjustments need to be made by ear. They all make a difference and they all effect one another. Recording quality makes a very big difference. Neither of us agrees with Fremer's 92 degrees or his method of finding the angle. We both seem to enjoy our systems.

I think I was pretty clear in my post above that I use one of six different arm heights for my LP collection. If I play one LP, I set the arm height for that LP. If the next LP has a different setting I change it, if not, I leave it alone. Some evenings, depending on the mood, I bring down a batch of LPs that all have the same setting and don't need to adjust anything. Again, I don't adjust horizontal alignment (HTA) for each LP as that is set for my the mean arm height that sounds good to me, and I leave that setting alone. I do adjust VTF, by slightly rotating the dynamic SME dial slightly only if I adjust the arm height by 1mm or more. It is not a big deal. These two adjustments (VTF and VTA) take about 20-30 seconds to do. My cleaning regiment takes 30 minutes per LP side, which is much more of a hassle. It is what I chose to do because I think it optimizes my playback and enjoyment. My local audio buddies agree about the sonic improvements that these adjustments make. I'm not asking anyone else to do them. It is just what I want to do for my own listening enjoyment. You should try to hear a properly set up SME V-12. You might be surprised.

You can call it MADNESS, if you want. That is fine.

This is an interesting thread. Thank you for starting it. I would like to read what others think are some of the current SOTA arms available today. I am personally interested in hearing the SAT arm and the Axiom from Acoustical Systems and perhaps a non wood version of the Durand. And I keep reading great things about the vintage SME 3012R.

 

[Don C]

Thank you for all of your advice, Don. I appreciate it. I think we agree on most of this stuff. The SME arms that you and I have owned are not SOTA. Adjustments need to be made by ear. They all make a difference and they all effect one another. Recording quality makes a very big difference. Neither of us agrees with Fremer's 92 degrees or his method of finding the angle. We both seem to enjoy our systems.

I think I was pretty clear in my post above that I use one of six different arm heights for my LP collection. If I play one LP, I set the arm height for that LP. If the next LP has a different setting I change it, if not, I leave it alone. Some evenings, depending on the mood, I bring down a batch of LPs that all have the same setting and don't need to adjust anything. Again, I don't adjust horizontal alignment (HTA) for each LP as that is set for my the mean arm height that sounds good to me, and I leave that setting alone. I do adjust VTF, by slightly rotating the dynamic SME dial slightly only if I adjust the arm height by 1mm or more. It is not a big deal. These two adjustments (VTF and VTA) take about 20-30 seconds to do. My cleaning regiment takes 30 minutes per LP side, which is much more of a hassle. It is what I chose to do because I think it optimizes my playback and enjoyment. My local audio buddies agree about the sonic improvements that these adjustments make. I'm not asking anyone else to do them. It is just what I want to do for my own listening enjoyment. You should try to hear a properly set up SME V-12. You might be surprised.

You can call it MADNESS, if you want. That is fine.

This is an interesting thread. Thank you for starting it. I would like to read what others think are some of the current SOTA arms available today. I am personally interested in hearing the SAT arm and the Axiom from Acoustical Systems and perhaps a non wood version of the Durand. And I keep reading great things about the vintage SME 3012R.

Thanks Peter.

Differing opinions are good, and learning is a continuous, life long process.

You have sorted you lps by grading them according to arm height, and found you do not need to readjust height for every single one. I suspect many records have the same height.

I once used two height settings, for regular and 180 grams records, but gave that up. Arm height and record thickness did not seem correlate that well IMO, and i gave it up.

The SME IV and V came out in 1987, and remain unchanged. I am sure your newer SME arm is much better. Fremer liked it in his review I recall.

What do you listen for, and what changes do you hear from Lp to Lp, with arm height adjustments?

It is hard the listen for one or two characteristics that you think are the major players, and then miss the subtle ones. that with that long term listening, may give you more angst.

When I am done adjusting I find more sonic differences, and a higher overall improvement across my collection. And constant arm changes, in hours or days, drives me mad, and have too stop, and just play music.

If you are always thinking, "some thing is off it does not sound perfect", that ruins the experience. I monitor sonic characteristics over many Lps, and if I find a common problem I adjust.

Speaker location adjusts are also the same, and can drive a person mad. Even after reading Jim Smiths book, and finding big changes, I fine tuned my Magnepans and got BIG improvements.

And I thought I had them setup perfect. I have had Maggies for years, in many rooms, and thought I knew everything.

 

[Don C]

I also posted this over on Audiogon and here is a response from Thom Mackris a famous turntable designer FYI.

You’ve clearly owned some top notch tonearms (and I’m not naming names, but you gave a few away in your comments). I try to emphasize exactly what you have done in the setup section of my support pages.

One key point I make with my customers (to the question: "which arm is best?") is that the tonearm you set up the best is the best one for you.

People interact with mechanical devices in different ways, so there is no single best adjustment design for a chosen parameter (e.g. VTA, anti-skate, etc.), but rather good ones and not so good ones.

I believe your #6 implies a #6a: adjustable effective length (i.e. cartridge slots, at least for pivoting arms).

This enables the use of arc protractors (which are designed for a fixed effective length) - knowing that the stylus offset from the mounting holes is not an industry standard. IOW, using an arm with a fixed mounting hole like the SME, the arm’s effective length will differ for a Dynavector XV1s (8.0mm stylus offset from mounting holes) vs. a Lyra which is closer to 9.0mm. Of course, with a linear tracker, an adjustable pivot to spindle distance will suffice.

In general, there are arms with great adjustment features which also sound great (I’ll stay out of naming names), and I’m all for ease of adjustment (my opening sentence).

Having said that, I might end up selecting an arm for a particular customer that might have compromised setup convenience in one or more parameters, if it fits their user profile. For example, if they were mechanically adept, and were using the arm with a conical stylus, mono cartridge, I might downplay azimuth precision (much as I don’t like to give up any design sophistication).

Your comment:

"Optimal setting are not for one record, but for the “mean” of all your Lps IMO."


hits the nail on the head. Finicky adjustment for each record is a path to misery, and yes, I know that it’s possible to extract the best by adjusting for each record.

Cheers,
Thom @ Galibier Design

 

[PeterA]

The SME IV and V came out in 1987, and remain unchanged. I am sure your newer SME arm is much better. Fremer liked it in his review I recall.

What do you listen for, and what changes do you hear from Lp to Lp, with arm height adjustments?

It is hard the listen for one or two characteristics that you think are the major players, and then miss the subtle ones. that with that long term listening, may give you more angst.

If you are always thinking, "some thing is off it does not sound perfect", that ruins the experience. I monitor sonic characteristics over many Lps, and if I find a common problem I adjust.

Speaker location adjusts are also the same, and can drive a person mad. Even after reading Jim Smiths book, and finding big changes, I fine tuned my Magnepans and got BIG improvements.

I think the V has had some changes to the bearing and to the internal wiring over the years. But I am not sure of the specifics. My arm is based on the V but has some differences besides three extra inches. Fremer actually did not review the SME V-12. He reviewed the 312S and he did like it, but it is not as good as my arm. It is more like a longer IV than it is like a longer V.

Regarding sonic differences with different arm height adjustments, that may require a rather lengthy response. I find that what I listen for depends in large part on the type of music. I have found that proper SRA is more noticeable with certain types of music. I am fairly happy listening to most amplified rock recordings with an good, average VTA setting, though I do adjust these as well, it is just not as critical as is a harpsichord, piano or cello sonata.

Depending on the instruments, I listen for the timing relationship between a note's fundamental frequency and its harmonics. If the two seem to overlap in time, obscuring detail and information, the arm needs to be lowered. If they are separated in time, the arm needs to be raised to make the note more continuous and natural sounding. I listen for a complete and continuous rendition of the note. This is easier to hear with plucked or struck instruments like a mandolin or a harpsichord or drum set. Also stand up base or piano. Bowed instruments or voice are more difficult to hear this. For those I listen for resolution, how much string versus wood or the inflections in the voice. I also listen for dynamic contrast. The greater it is, the better. If it is a great recording, I can also listen for the sense of space and hall information and how the sound fills the listening room. In almost all cases, the better the cartridge is dialed in, the presence the sound has. This is how palpable, three dimensional and realistic the instruments sound. Of course, this is all assuming the rest of the system and the speaker and listening seat are set up properly. And the overall result must be very transparent. Baring those, I listen for what I first mentioned, the completeness and continuousness of the note: the timing relationship between a notes fundamental and its harmonics. I listen to a lot of live unamplified music, so the final measure for proper arm height is that the instruments sound more natural. I suppose I know it when I hear it.

Just today, I listened to some old rock favorites: early Black Sabbath and Deep Purple. I just found these LPs and cleaned them and then had to find the right arm heights. With the amplified, distorted sound, it was not easy to hear individual note fundamentals and harmonics, so I listened for overall clarity, resolution and presence. Then tonight, I listened to some Back harpsichord and viola de Gamba. For that, I already had the setting. And because the harpsichord can either sound spot on or easily off, the setting had to be perfect. That .5mm to high or low, ruined it. It is very easy to hear the harmonics overlapping or being separated from the fundamental of those plucked keys.

So, you started a thread all about arm adjustability. It seems the Graham and Tri Planars are designed specifically for ease of adjustment and would encourage proper VTA for each LP, but you choose not to do this, which is perfectly fine. I would then suggest, that one does not need ease of adjustment in an arm, but just some form of adjustment because it will be done only once. A well regarded analog guy on Audiogon has the TriPlanar and knows your friend from Galibier turntables. He does adjust for each LP and bought the arm specifically for that reason. I have watched him do it during a listening session at his house and at another guy's house and the results were impressive with the TriPlanar and Durand arms.

I actually am more comfortable not having to always think something is off which is why I make notations about what the different settings should be. If I forget to change it by accident, I pretty quickly hear that something is off, and I don't enjoy it. I get up, adjust the arm height in 20-30 seconds, and then enjoy a better sounding performance without further worrying about it.

We seem to have different methods, and that is just fine. It is a great hobby with diverse approaches.

I agree with you about speaker positioning. It can drive one mad if not done deliberately and with purpose and experience. I read Jim Smith's book and got close. I then hired him to voice my system to the room. I assisted him, made methodical notes, and learned as much as I could. I then carefully recorded all dimensions and have left it alone. I am pleased with the results.

I apologize for taking the discussion off topic and focusing on SME and arm height adjustments. That does not appear to have been the original intent of the thread.

 

[PeterA]

I also posted this over on Audiogon and here is a response from Thom Mackris a famous turntable designer FYI.

You’ve clearly owned some top notch tonearms ...

Your comment:

"Optimal setting are not for one record, but for the “mean” of all your Lps IMO."


hits the nail on the head. Finicky adjustment for each record is a path to misery, and yes, I know that it’s possible to extract the best by adjusting for each record.

Cheers,
Thom @ Galibier Design

Interesting that you quote Thom. I seem to remember that he is a big fan of the highly adjustable TriPlanar. He also seems to agree that you once owned top notch arms with your two SMEs, if I understand his comments correctly. And I agree with his last comment in bold. We can indeed extract the best (from each recording) by adjusting for each record, but we must decide for ourselves if it is a path to misery or to bliss.

 

[Don C]

I think the V has had some changes to the bearing and to the internal wiring over the years. But I am not sure of the specifics. My arm is based on the V but has some differences besides three extra inches. Fremer actually did not review the SME V-12. He reviewed the 312S and he did like it, but it is not as good as my arm. It is more like a longer IV than it is like a longer V.

Regarding sonic differences with different arm height adjustments, that may require a rather lengthy response. I find that what I listen for depends in large part on the type of music. I have found that proper SRA is more noticeable with certain types of music. I am fairly happy listening to most amplified rock recordings with an good, average VTA setting, though I do adjust these as well, it is just not as critical as is a harpsichord, piano or cello sonata.

Depending on the instruments, I listen for the timing relationship between a note's fundamental frequency and its harmonics. If the two seem to overlap in time, obscuring detail and information, the arm needs to be lowered. If they are separated in time, the arm needs to be raised to make the note more continuous and natural sounding. I listen for a complete and continuous rendition of the note. This is easier to hear with plucked or struck instruments like a mandolin or a harpsichord or drum set. Also stand up base or piano. Bowed instruments or voice are more difficult to hear this. For those I listen for resolution, how much string versus wood or the inflections in the voice. I also listen for dynamic contrast. The greater it is, the better. If it is a great recording, I can also listen for the sense of space and hall information and how the sound fills the listening room. In almost all cases, the better the cartridge is dialed in, the presence the sound has. This is how palpable, three dimensional and realistic the instruments sound. Of course, this is all assuming the rest of the system and the speaker and listening seat are set up properly. And the overall result must be very transparent. Baring those, I listen for what I first mentioned, the completeness and continuousness of the note: the timing relationship between a notes fundamental and its harmonics. I listen to a lot of live unamplified music, so the final measure for proper arm height is that the instruments sound more natural. I suppose I know it when I hear it.

Just today, I listened to some old rock favorites: early Black Sabbath and Deep Purple. I just found these LPs and cleaned them and then had to find the right arm heights. With the amplified, distorted sound, it was not easy to hear individual note fundamentals and harmonics, so I listened for overall clarity, resolution and presence. Then tonight, I listened to some Back harpsichord and viola de Gamba. For that, I already had the setting. And because the harpsichord can either sound spot on or easily off, the setting had to be perfect. That .5mm to high or low, ruined it. It is very easy to hear the harmonics overlapping or being separated from the fundamental of those plucked keys.

So, you started a thread all about arm adjustability. It seems the Graham and Tri Planars are designed specifically for ease of adjustment and would encourage proper VTA for each LP, but you choose not to do this, which is perfectly fine. I would then suggest, that one does not need ease of adjustment in an arm, but just some form of adjustment because it will be done only once. A well regarded analog guy on Audiogon has the TriPlanar and knows your friend from Galibier turntables. He does adjust for each LP and bought the arm specifically for that reason. I have watched him do it during a listening session at his house and at another guy's house and the results were impressive with the TriPlanar and Durand arms.

I actually am more comfortable not having to always think something is off which is why I make notations about what the different settings should be. If I forget to change it by accident, I pretty quickly hear that something is off, and I don't enjoy it. I get up, adjust the arm height in 20-30 seconds, and then enjoy a better sounding performance without further worrying about it.

We seem to have different methods, and that is just fine. It is a great hobby with diverse approaches.

I agree with you about speaker positioning. It can drive one mad if not done deliberately and with purpose and experience. I read Jim Smith's book and got close. I then hired him to voice my system to the room. I assisted him, made methodical notes, and learned as much as I could. I then carefully recorded all dimensions and have left it alone. I am pleased with the results.

I apologize for taking the discussion off topic and focusing on SME and arm height adjustments. That does not appear to have been the original intent of the thread.

I would never consider Black Sabbath Or Deep Purple recordings representative of good Rock or Pop.

There are many, many, good recordings in rock and pop, if you are into that, IMO. I have plenty of classical, jazz, folk, classic rock,etc.

Classical does not have a monopoly on good recordings to tune your arm to.

Use what you are familiar with, and compare to live.

I use acoustic folk, jazz, and small group classical recordings mostly for critical setup. Groups that could actually fit in my living room.

3d imaging, sound stage, and tonal balance are most important to me. The "they are in my room" experience.

That is what 6 foot Maggies do that makes them so popular, and why they have a huge following.

I have a budget, and am not into expensive "snob appeal" audio equipment.

I feel you have issues with my dislike of SME arms. I tried to like them, but they are not my cup of tea. I would never buy another. To each his own.

 

[NorthStar]

Spinning an album of Pink Floyd, or Genesis, or Jethro Tull, or King Crimson, or Yes, or Led Zeppelin, or The Beatles, or The Rolling Stones on a turntable...all good IMO & experience. ...James Taylor, Miles Davis, Alan Parson's Project, Harmonium, Cat Stevens, Shawn Phillips, George Moustaki, Jacques Brel, Joni Mitchell, Leonard Cohen, Sarah Vaughan, Billie Holiday, ...

...All fine artists (music) to set your tonearm's anti-skating, weight (tracking force) adjustments and all that jazz.

 

[PeterA]

I would never consider Black Sabbath Or Deep Purple recordings representative of good Rock or Pop.

There are many, many, good recordings in rock and pop, if you are into that, IMO. I have plenty of classical, jazz, folk, classic rock,etc.

Classical does not have a monopoly on good recordings to tune your arm to.

Use what you are familiar with, and compare to live.

I use acoustic folk, jazz, and small group classical recordings mostly for critical setup. Groups that could actually fit in my living room.

3d imaging, sound stage, and tonal balance are most important to me. The "they are in my room" experience.

That is what 6 foot Maggies do that makes them so popular, and why they have a huge following.

I have a budget, and am not into expensive "snob appeal" audio equipment.

I feel you have issues with my dislike of SME arms. I tried to like them, but they are not my cup of tea. I would never buy another. To each his own.

Don, Perhaps we should keep commentary about music and component preferences out of this discussion. I was just trying to be specific with my response to your question. My favorite old rock albums happened to be what I just re found and bought on a recent trip to Michigan. I cleaned them and listened to them yesterday as you posed your question to me about arm height. As they were new to my collection and I had not set arm height for them yet, I used them as an example for the purposes of your question. Are we now going to criticize each other's musical choices? I grew up in the Midwest,USA, where you live now, and this is what we all listened to when I was young. I like all kinds of music, but I listen primarily to small scale jazz and classical chamber. Deep Purple, Jon Lord in particular, was heavily influenced by Bach.

Let's not also denigrate each other's equipment choices by bringing budget and snob appeal into it, though this is the first time anyone has mentioned snob appeal with SME ownership to me. I don't think that is relevant to this discussion.

Did I answer your question about what I listen for when adjusting arm height?

 

[Don C]

Don, Perhaps we should keep commentary about music and component preferences out of this discussion. I was just trying to be specific with my response to your question. My favorite old rock albums happened to be what I just re found and bought on a recent trip to Michigan. I cleaned them and listened to them yesterday as you posed your question to me about arm height. As they were new to my collection and I had not set arm height for them yet, I used them as an example for the purposes of your question. Are we now going to criticize each other's musical choices? I grew up in the Midwest,USA, where you live now, and this is what we all listened to when I was young. I like all kinds of music, but I listen primarily to small scale jazz and classical chamber. Deep Purple, Jon Lord in particular, was heavily influenced by Bach.

Let's not also denigrate each other's equipment choices by bringing budget and snob appeal into it, though this is the first time anyone has mentioned snob appeal with SME ownership to me. I don't think that is relevant to this discussion.

Did I answer your question about what I listen for when adjusting arm height?

Yes you answered my question. The Snob appeal comment was meant for most of the posters on this site.

Another problem I have with SRA adjusting each Lp, is that there is a "settling" of the suspension that takes 30 to 60 minutes of play before getting good quality playback.

Before this settling time has elapsed the SRA adjustment would yield poor results. That makes for a lot of time spent.

 

[PeterA]

Yes you answered my question. The Snob appeal comment was meant for most of the posters on this site.

Another problem I have with SRA adjusting each Lp, is that there is a "settling" of the suspension that takes 30 to 60 minutes of play before getting good quality playback.

Before this settling time has elapsed the SRA adjustment would yield poor results. That makes for a lot of time spent.

Don, don't worry about the other posters' priorities as they select their gear. Each to his own, as they say. Snob appeal does not effect this interesting topic in the least.

Could you explain more about this settling of the suspension? Is this what people refer to as the cartridge warming up at the beginning of a listening session? How does raising the arm .5mm effect the cartridge settling for the next 30-60 minutes? Does this occur each time you raise the stylus out of the groove?

I usually play the cartridge for at least an hour before I attempt to determine what the right SRA is for an LP that I have not previously tested. I also confirm that the turntable speed is correct and that the platter is level. Once I determine what the SRA should be, I usually play both sides of the LP. That is 40 or so minutes, and the sound is good and consistent throughout both sides. You seem to be suggesting that it should change in some way.

Have you calculated how much the cartridge suspension settles and converted that to a degree for SRA? On a typical 9" arm, 1mm of arm height change corresponds to roughly 1/4 degree of SRA. How do you yourself account for this settling when you adjust your arm height the one time for the 80% of your collection? Do you then readjust all of the other parameters due to this settling?

As I wrote, my mean arm height is a setting, using my methodology, of 17.5mm. This sounds fine for the bulk of my collection and incredible for the 30% or so LPs that have this as their proper SRA. If I did nothing more I'd be following the procedures for the vast majority of vinyl listeners and my results, depending on how accurate my particular set up procedure is, would be the same as everyone else who listens to vinyl. So how should everyone account for this settling?

Your comment is quite intriguing, so it has prompted all sorts of questions from me. Sorry about that. Please explain in some detail what the implications are.

 

[Don C]

If you are playing for an hour your SRA setting should be good for you.

The warm up effect when starting a playing session is real. Sound stage expands, note decay gets longer, and slightly edgy sounds go away during the first hour.

When I play for hours and then swap arm tubes I hear the effect.

Lets not go into why, but it is both cartridge and thermal stability of electronics.

I make adjustments after this is warm up is completely over. I want the cartridge and system, stable, as I have said.

I am all "talked out" as far as this thread goes. There is lots and lots of internet discussion on VTA/SRA and arm adjustment by many people.

 

[PeterA]

If you are playing for an hour your SRA setting should be good for you.

The warm up effect when starting a playing session is real. Sound stage expands, note decay gets longer, and slightly edgy sounds go away during the first hour.

Thanks Don. I am well aware of a cartridge warming up. I had thought you were talking about something else which I had not considered. Enjoy.