My CH Precision/Magico System

[Al M.]

To my ears and what I perceive as distortion and/or artifacts that is produced by my tweeters is much reduced with the full CH Precision chain.

Which suggests that it's not the tweeters. I always found your tweeters pure sounding, and that experience was partially what led me to explore reducing the HF distortions stemming from my room acoustics, of which there were many, and still there are some (much less now).

But I do think the CH Precision gear brings an extra level of purity to the table, something I noticed quickly with just the L1 preamp. It sounds as clean as the Music First passive TVC preamp did when you tried it in your system, and as resolving (or even more so?), but with the weight, drive and tonal density that an active preamp can provide -- certainly it does so combined with the X1 external power supply.

 

[KeithR]

Hey Ian, just wanted to congratulate you on an arduous but successful journey! Really delightful to read how you finally hit the magic combination with CH Precision. You've always wanted an in-between SS and tube type sound and this makes sense. Your preamp affinity is like mine with amps

Question for you - do you feel CH is a system approach? ie. since you've owned various CH pieces for a long time, was the magic when the whole stack was in or were they great components individually and with other brands. Also, what negative feedback setting works best for your Magicos?

Cheers!

 

[Bobvin]

i think i agree Steve. currently i have 2 tubes, one for each channel of my CS Port phono. and it's a great fit for my system.

in a month or so my Aesthetix Io Eclipse 3 box phono stage will arrive with 20-30 tubes.

i'm certainly not anti-tube. the pull of tubes is strong. but i prefer to live with my choice of solid state as my dominant system companion. maybe if i had a smaller scale system with different large scale music expectations maybe my trade-off preferences might change. i could see that happening at some point. i'm not a solid state or die kinda guy.

I was about to say something Mike, about your phono stage, as that will be the one place I still have tubes when all the Pilium kit arrives. I’m far behind many members on trying / owning different brands and SS vs. tubes. I guess it’ll be the beginning if my post-grad audiophile education. Your system certainly piqued my desire to expand my knowledge base. That said, I am very much hoping to be able to assemble a “system“ as successfully as the rig I’ve sold off. I am without tunes at the moment--I might beg for a visit.

Ian, I’d love to hear your rig. Having visited with Alon I have new found respect for the Magico, and by all accounts the CH Precision ticks the boxes of some very seasoned audiophiles. Have you been down to visit Bob @ Rhapsody to hear the Pilium kit? With the M9s in Hayward I was gobsmacked, and I know Alon has had the CH Precision driving the M9s but is using the Pilium currently.

 

[MadFloyd]

Which suggests that it's not the tweeters. I always found your tweeters pure sounding, and that experience was partially what led me to explore reducing the HF distortions stemming from my room acoustics, of which there were many, and still there are some (much less now).

But I do think the CH Precision gear brings an extra level of purity to the table, something I noticed quickly with just the L1 preamp. It sounds as clean as the Music First passive TVC preamp did when you tried it in your system, and as resolving (or even more so?), but with the weight, drive and tonal density that an active preamp can provide -- certainly it does so combined with the X1 external power supply.

Thanks Al. I had forgotten the name of that passive preamp - Music First - that was so darn clean sounding.

 

[MadFloyd]

Hey Ian, just wanted to congratulate you on an arduous but successful journey! Really delightful to read how you finally hit the magic combination with CH Precision. You've always wanted an in-between SS and tube type sound and this makes sense. Your preamp affinity is like mine with amps

Question for you - do you feel CH is a system approach? ie. since you've owned various CH pieces for a long time, was the magic when the whole stack was in or were they great components individually and with other brands. Also, what negative feedback setting works best for your Magicos?

Cheers!

Thanks, Keith.

With regard to our affinities, preamps aren't as heavy.

I'm sure there's always advantages to a system approach. For example, I think my CAT amps are a tad lean sounding in certain respects but their preamp was the opposite and balanced things out. I suspect there's something similar going on with dartzeel. Fremer tried the CH amps and found them dark sounding with his dartzeel preamp. I have a dartzeel preamp and I find it much darker than my CH which makes me think that the dartzeel amps are on the bright side (but match heavenly no doubt with the preamp). I've been meaning to try my dartzeel preamp with the CH amps and see if I get the same impressions as Mr. Fremer. I have yet to try any other preamps with the amps - which might be the only way to suss out their character.

One thing that I can say about the system as a whole is that the sound doesn't change based on volume. I start turning that knob and it's almost like nothing happens.... I don't get the usual auditory feedback that the volume is ramping up.... until the room starts to chime in. I think that's a testament to how clean it sounds, but that's just my opinion; I'm not trying to state a fact.

And as for the preamp on its own, it mates well with my CAT amps, but I've never tried it with anything else. My gut feeling is that it is so neutral sounding and has been designed to be very flexible.

As far as the feedback setting, I do prefer it with 0% (probably the more 'tube-like' value) but I also like it with 10 or 20 depending on my mood & music. I have the gain set at +1 which adds a little more drive to my ears.

 

[MadFloyd]

Ian, I’d love to hear your rig. Having visited with Alon I have new found respect for the Magico, and by all accounts the CH Precision ticks the boxes of some very seasoned audiophiles. Have you been down to visit Bob @ Rhapsody to hear the Pilium kit? With the M9s in Hayward I was gobsmacked, and I know Alon has had the CH Precision driving the M9s but is using the Pilium currently.

I have NOT heard the Pilium gear. I'm pretty sure I would like it based on everything I've heard but obviously the proof is in the pudding as they say. For example, I'm not a fan of Soulution as they have a 'house sound' that doesn't jive with me (but obviously are very good products).

In fact, when I did visit the Magico factory to hear the M3 (when it was introduced) the electronics were Soulution and what I heard reminded me of my larger MPros with Soulution (I had auditioned the brand at one point).

I do know that Alon has had a variety of gear in that room. He certainly uses top flight stuff.

I envy you hearing the M9s... I can only imagine what that must have been like!

 

[Gregm]

The CH is tonally leaner sounding in the midrange but more accurate to my ears. For example, violin comes across to my ears as sounding more realistic. While I totally enjoy a tonally full-bodied violin sound that I hear in some systems, I find it doesn't necessarily represent what I hear live.

I think the CAT may have the edge with tonal density on cello - and produces more rounder images, however the resolution on the CH is superior, especially in the lower frequencies where things can start to 'blur' somewhat on the CAT.

Your experience with the cat pre is very interesting, esp as it compares & contrasts (somewhat) with mine from many years ago when i had Goldmund and Cat pres along with the Symphonic Lines. I would liken the Goldmund to the CH, albeit I find the CH has better resolution and much more controlled highs and hence no “edginess” despite the extended FR.
The CAT amazingly was more dynamically explosive than the GMund and also seemed to have better space between the instruments. in actual frequency extension however, the GMund was much superior. The cat also had the density you referred to—which i attributed to tube euphonics.

Outstanding system, anyway!

 

[Al M.]

The CAT presents more space between instruments and more depth to the soundstage than the CH.
The CH is more authoritative in the bass, not just deep bass but bass in general. Not that I listen to electronic music much, but it demonstrates the differences pretty well.
The CH is cleaner sounding, more pure, easily heard in the highs but also the midrange.
The CH is more detailed/resolving.
The CH is more dynamic with my speakers.

After I purchased the amps, I ended up getting a CAT preamp. It produced a huge sound with lots of body but I didn't like the timbre... e.g. piano sounded a bit too brown for my tastes and I could hear distortion too easily. Other than that though it was pretty nice...

Ian, as you already know, I personally (and as tube afficionado myself) cannot hear any drawbacks with the CH amps compared to your CAT amps, neither in tonal density and richness nor in spatial presentation. I hear all the virtues of that tube sound, and then more. With the CH monoblocks, on the album Encores with music for violin and piano, the palpability of Hilary Hahn's violin in space was the best I have heard so far from your system. Timbre was very believable and pure. That extra purity of tone from the CH Precision gear (both the preamp and amps) is really beguiling.

Especially important for me, the insertion of the CH monoblocks into your system adds a level of liveliness to the sound that makes the music intoxicating. The last two times I heard your system, that is since you have the CH Precision monoblocks, the music was engaging and entertaining as never before. No wonder that you are, as you say, totally immersed in your system since you have those amps. They really make those Magico speakers sing!

That level of vividness of presentation is much closer than before to what I enjoy and cherish at home, but then your system completes the picture with an extra authority of sound, especially on orchestral but also on other music, as it is possible from a component configuration like yours.

Having followed your audio journey with listening in person over the years, I am glad that now everything came together so beautifully. Congrats, Ian!

 

[MadFloyd]

Well there you have it - Al's thoughts on the comparison between the two amps.

Thanks, Al!

 

[andromedaaudio]

What makes the CH power amps especially interesting afaic , is that you can adjust the feed back .
Did you play with that option and if so how did it compare ?

 

[MadFloyd]

What makes the CH power amps especially interesting afaic , is that you can adjust the feed back .
Did you play with that option and if so how did it compare ?

I agree it's an interesting option. So is the gain setting (which also has an effect on sound).

Once you start increasing the feedback, bass tightens up, things get a lot more precise... but that changes the character of the sound and with my speakers, in my room, with my tastes, I prefer 0% feedback and +1 gain. It's one of those YMMV type things.

 

[Al M.]

Well there you have it - Al's thoughts on the comparison between the two amps.

Thanks, Al!

You're welcome, Ian! Of course, a side-by-side comparison of the two amp pairs would be nice some time, in order to verify impressions. Yet at this point my appetite for this has not risen to any level of urgency.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I was about to say something Mike, about your phono stage, as that will be the one place I still have tubes when all the Pilium kit arrives. I’m far behind many members on trying / owning different brands and SS vs. tubes. I guess it’ll be the beginning if my post-grad audiophile education. Your system certainly piqued my desire to expand my knowledge base. That said, I am very much hoping to be able to assemble a “system“ as successfully as the rig I’ve sold off. I am without tunes at the moment--I might beg for a visit.

Ian, I’d love to hear your rig. Having visited with Alon I have new found respect for the Magico, and by all accounts the CH Precision ticks the boxes of some very seasoned audiophiles. Have you been down to visit Bob @ Rhapsody to hear the Pilium kit? With the M9s in Hayward I was gobsmacked, and I know Alon has had the CH Precision driving the M9s but is using the Pilium currently.

Bob,

the mildly tubed CS Port phono seems to be a perfect match on a solid state system. to my ears it is as quiet as any phono i have yet heard, so does not compromise that solid state attribute.

sorry you are without tunes; you are always welcome here as you know. it's been fun for me to see you dive deeper and deeper into these obsessions. when some of your new toys arrive i hope i can come down and hear them. i expect to be wowed.

i think the 'better than the rig you sold off' idea has left the station never to return. your references have been advanced.

 

[morricab]

When it hurts my ears and it sounds gritty it's usually distortion... whether it's the fault of the component or something like bad power can be debated. That was my impression at the time but wasn't the only factor in my deciding it wasn't for me.

Now, I find this very strange. I have a friend that had three dIfferent versions of that preamp and it was also super transparent and clear with nary a hint of grit in sight. Granted to my ears I always found the CAT pres a bit lean and perhaps a bit too much energy up top (perhaps this is what you were responding to?). In fact, I haven’t heard a good tube preamp ever sound “gritty”.
I never found that SS pres have a tonality that I can relate with what I hear with live, unamplified Instruments.

 

[morricab]

The CH is tonally leaner sounding in the midrange but more accurate to my ears. For example, violin comes across to my ears as sounding more realistic. While I totally enjoy a tonally full-bodied violin sound that I hear in some systems, I find it doesn't necessarily represent what I hear live.

I think the CAT may have the edge with tonal density on cello - and produces more rounder images, however the resolution on the CH is superior, especially in the lower frequencies where things can start to 'blur' somewhat on the CAT.

I have heard CH precision many times (living in CH) and I would agree with the leaner tonality, which for me would be a deal breaker as I feel it is leaner than real life. Having lived with a top profi violinist for several years who played on Strads, Guaneris etc I was always disturbed how far off most systems are tonally from the real thing...almost always too lean and “stringy” sounding...same with other stringed instruments, piano and horns (my daughter plays trumpet so I get to hear that live a lot too).

TBH, I actually find the CATs to be a bit leaner tonally than the real thing as well...

 

[knghifi]

I've always said that if there is only one place to choose where to put a tube, it would be in the preamp and keep the amps SS

That's what I believed and was doing for many years. Now with excellent results using SS DAC or SS preamp to a CAT JL7 SE tube amp, both ways work. Also with tube amps, one experiences more tube flavor than a tube preamp.

 

[LL21]

I have heard CH precision many times (living in CH) and I would agree with the leaner tonality, which for me would be a deal breaker as I feel it is leaner than real life. Having lived with a top profi violinist for several years who played on Strads, Guaneris etc I was always disturbed how far off most systems are tonally from the real thing...almost always too lean and “stringy” sounding...same with other stringed instruments, piano and horns (my daughter plays trumpet so I get to hear that live a lot too).

TBH, I actually find the CATs to be a bit leaner tonally than the real thing as well...

Interesting...is there ANY solid state you find gives you that image density and tonal purity that you feel is more like live? Or better yet, where do you turn when you wish to find that 'lifelike tonality'? I am imaging Aries Cerat, but I have not heard it...and I am trying to calibrate based on names you and I might both have heard. Robert Koda? Gryphon (amps only, not preamp), FM Acoustics?

 

[morricab]

Interesting...is there ANY solid state you find gives you that image density and tonal purity that you feel is more like live? Or better yet, where do you turn when you wish to find that 'lifelike tonality'? I am imaging Aries Cerat, but I have not heard it...and I am trying to calibrate based on names you and I might both have heard. Robert Koda? Gryphon (amps only, not preamp), FM Acoustics?

There are a couple SS amp brands that have interesting tonal density but the overall effect is a “dark” sound that also then doesn’t sound real (thinking BAT and Vitus), IMO.

I am not anti-transistor per se. I had and still like KR Audio, which are hybrids (input and driver are SS), also their hybrid pre is good. I also had pretty good sound from a NAT Symbiosis SE, which was single ended hybrid where the output was a single huge MOSFET (input and driver were tube). Ultimately it was beaten by good SET.

Gryphon does not have it, IMO (have not heard latest models) FM Acoustics definitely does not...again IMO. The Robert Koda hybrid might have it but I haven’t heard it. CAT doesn’t have it either IMO. Interestingly, the Jadis Defy 7 mkiii with Siltech wiring had very good tone on FOCAL speakers even...interesting amp...especially for PP.

 

[jeff1225]

I might really enjoy it, but I hear every cartridge produced is different and a bit of a crapshoot.

Besides, I dream of upgrading to a SAT arm which is supposed to be killer with Lyra.

Tang sold all of his SAT's (he had 3) for the 3012R, not sure it would be much of an upgrade. And just think, that's $30K of records you can buy....

 

[Lagonda]

There are a couple SS amp brands that have interesting tonal density but the overall effect is a “dark” sound that also then doesn’t sound real (thinking BAT and Vitus), IMO.

I am not anti-transistor per se. I had and still like KR Audio, which are hybrids (input and driver are SS), also their hybrid pre is good. I also had pretty good sound from a NAT Symbiosis SE, which was single ended hybrid where the output was a single huge MOSFET (input and driver were tube). Ultimately it was beaten by good SET.

Gryphon does not have it, IMO (have not heard latest models) FM Acoustics definitely does not...again IMO. The Robert Koda hybrid might have it but I haven’t heard it. CAT doesn’t have it either IMO. Interestingly, the Jadis Defy 7 mkiii with Siltech wiring had very good tone on FOCAL speakers even...interesting amp...especially for PP.

Brad, you just need to get a good belt drive TT like Ian has, then you don't need all that prettying up with all your tube gear !