My feels about this forum
- Thread starter Tim F
- Start date
So, when you followed DDK's advice what was yr shocking revelation? That you didn't need yr CS and MB tweaks? I'm genuinely curious since I've never read you doubting these two products.
Empirical Audio
Industry Expert
The biggest rabbit hole I have encountered is not with tweaks, but with jitter. Some find jitter to be euphonic, adding "ambience". Some also experience this with poor tube electronics. They like the distortion.
I don't do many tweaks myself, although I embarked recently with vibration control and active acoustic treatments, including quartz resonators and even Schumann resonators. I have found most of these to be beneficial. If it does not make it more live or eliminate the walls from the equation, I remove it.
Steve williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
you're correct. I don't doubt these products because I have had them in and out of my system on 8 different occasions and I know exactly what they do Marc and they are system changers
and Marc you're not curious , you're just trying to stir the pot as you always do so well
once again Marc I have done the A-B-A test on 8 different occasions so I know exactly what the difference is. Have you done the experiment 8 times in your system Marc?
What I had before robbed my system of the sense of presence due to complete absence of ambience What I have now does not do that. How's that Marc? Any other questions from the peanut gallery
Steve williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
as an addendum Marc I have found that the people make changes or tweaks to their systems the results are always followed with great comments about what they hear. IOW they do an A-B test. What they don't do is an A-B-A test to truly know what the changes are and are very resistant to doing such. That takes them down the rabbit hole and always seem to be chasing their tails to correct a change from something they did rather than just saying, the changes were not always positive
My mantra has always been , "did you hear something better or just something different? If it was something better then how so?" That involves an A-B-A test Marc
Ive done it 8 times. Read the reviews on the product Marc before you try to fan some flames
Nope, I'm saving those peanuts for my snack, thanks. Interesting to hear you feel I've stepped on yr toes, I really didn't think I had. But tbh, yr statement seemed a little inconsistent. I am impressed w your figure of eight times. More power to yr elbow.
Now, where are those peanuts?
Now, where are those peanuts?
Steve - we've mentioned in passing Latin and English, but I wonder what language we'd find "tbh, yr"? Double Dutch to me! Peter
Steve williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
Marc
you have asked me the same question on at least 3-4 different times in different threads . My answer has never wavered. It's not a matter of stepping on my toes Marc bur rather re asking the same question of me on many different occasions. As for 8 times in and out of my system, yes I have done it for people who are interested in the feet and come to my house for a listen. Further there are so many comments in this forum from other users all of whom have proffered the same findings as mine
The frothing, spluttering rage of some guys against the costs of high end audio, who regard themselves as the Knights Of Holy Snake Oil Protectorate, are entertaining, too.
Like somebody mentioned, a lot of this stuff is probably purchased by business men with high cost inventories who list them as business expense and may even take depreciation tax write offs for them. There are those on spendaholic forays to avoid inheritance taxes also mentioned. There are also the merely well off, financially indifferent who purchase according to perceived status and interior decorating, not value or cost, they just don't care.
I like the British wag, whose name I can't remember, who built several sound studios in Britain and Europe who said: "I have no objection to expensive cables at all. I'm sure they aren't any worse than oxygen free copper."
Like somebody mentioned, a lot of this stuff is probably purchased by business men with high cost inventories who list them as business expense and may even take depreciation tax write offs for them. There are those on spendaholic forays to avoid inheritance taxes also mentioned. There are also the merely well off, financially indifferent who purchase according to perceived status and interior decorating, not value or cost, they just don't care.
I like the British wag, whose name I can't remember, who built several sound studios in Britain and Europe who said: "I have no objection to expensive cables at all. I'm sure they aren't any worse than oxygen free copper."
Yeah, can you please spell things out normally? Would be more inviting for the purpose of reading your posts. Especially yr.
Steve, I'm not questioning the efficacy of your Centre Stage footers and Masterbuilt cables. I've never heard them, can't comment. I'm specifically commenting on your view that so many of us are going down the rabbit hole of tweaks and you don't appear to be able to self reflect that you're tweaked to the max. So, if that's throwing peanuts at you, if you say so.
Steve williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
I understand and respect your opinion Marc. I truly have been deeper down that hole than most readers here because I have been in the hobby, I'm betting, longer than almost everyone here, and also because I always only did an A-B test on any equipment that I added without removing the equipment and listening again. All too often that resulted in doing something else to correct for something that resulted from what was changed or added etc, etc etc
For me Marc all of this is just my opinion based on all of my mistakes. My goal over these past 4 years was to develop a system that I truly call "End Game" and where I am now is at that point. I used to be filled with hyperbole regarding the 2 products which you mention (one of which I have a vested interest) but I have stopped doing that because I let them stand on their own merit . There are others here who have posted that these are not tweaks but should be considered essential to the development of a' system. So to come back to your question my answer to you is that the end result, based on my ears as well as others who have done the A-B-A test with me, is that the result is so positive that I've said they are keepers and will never be sold.
HTH
Once you push through and poke that pocket nerve a few times it’s pretty easy for it to go a bit numb... next thing you know your spending big and largely feelin no pain at all
That is what slippery slopes were designed for(a).
Very very good advice Steve.Noli contra ventum urinare
I couldn't resist that one
I'll put up the next one:
Duo quum faciunt idem, non est idem.
Welcome. This is a good forum, but you need to take a lot of posters with a grain of salt. So to speak. I often refer to this forum as the ‘What’s most expensive.” forum.
Fortunately we have a forum covering high-end and systems of all the prices, including many examples of top equipment. Properly used by great designers and manufacturers more resources result in general in better equipment and it is great to know of experiences of people using top gear, top rooms and top music choices. Surely there are exceptions, and it is great to have a place to discuss equipment that does not fulfill their promises.
IMHO we have to take all posters, including me
, with many grains of salt. This is an hobby of preference, extremely emotional and very biased.
Fora vs Forums ? Is that what some people took from my earlier post? Seriously?!
Well , let me inform such pedants that there are much more serious issues in life, like:
Why isn't phonetic spelled the way it sounds?
Why is brassiere singular and panties plural?
hahaha so there !
Oh, and fora is correct !
Well , let me inform such pedants that there are much more serious issues in life, like:
Why isn't phonetic spelled the way it sounds?
Why is brassiere singular and panties plural?
hahaha so there !
Oh, and fora is correct !
Regarding tweaking and things Latin:
Ceteris paribus - with other things being the same'
mutatis mutandis - ‘things being changed that have to be changed’
Ceteris paribus 'with other things being the same' ....an attempt to control variables is difficult in research and it is difficult to truly focus on factors that need to be changed.... or know what needs to be changed.
I am not against tweaking per se. For some it IS the hobby that they enjoy. For others, a means to an end. IMO fun is where you find it.
IMO tweaking can become a rabbit hole and as Richard Feynman points out, “Science is a way of trying not to fool yourself. The principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool.”
For most of us non-blind AB/ AB home listening is helpful to convince our own ears (Feynman's caveat noted). We can only listen with our own ears, I could care less what "I am supposed to hear or not hear". Now, If you really want to disappear down a rabbit hole let's talk blind testing for audio, not! Removing bias is NOT the issue, it is how.
Either way I remain wary of people that are too sure of things. IME the truly scientific answer is very often "I don't really know".Doubt is what drives science and IMO that includes doubt in oneself. People who are certain of everything have faith. "“I can live with doubt and uncertainty and not knowing. I think it is much more interesting to live not knowing than to have answers that might be wrong."
Ceteris paribus - with other things being the same'
mutatis mutandis - ‘things being changed that have to be changed’
Ceteris paribus 'with other things being the same' ....an attempt to control variables is difficult in research and it is difficult to truly focus on factors that need to be changed.... or know what needs to be changed.
I am not against tweaking per se. For some it IS the hobby that they enjoy. For others, a means to an end. IMO fun is where you find it.
IMO tweaking can become a rabbit hole and as Richard Feynman points out, “Science is a way of trying not to fool yourself. The principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool.”
For most of us non-blind AB/ AB home listening is helpful to convince our own ears (Feynman's caveat noted). We can only listen with our own ears, I could care less what "I am supposed to hear or not hear". Now, If you really want to disappear down a rabbit hole let's talk blind testing for audio, not! Removing bias is NOT the issue, it is how.
Either way I remain wary of people that are too sure of things. IME the truly scientific answer is very often "I don't really know".Doubt is what drives science and IMO that includes doubt in oneself. People who are certain of everything have faith. "“I can live with doubt and uncertainty and not knowing. I think it is much more interesting to live not knowing than to have answers that might be wrong."
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Luxury? maybe. Pleasurable? Surely. Guilty? No
There are many things I might consider could or should evoke guilty feelings, spending my money on my audio is just not one of them.
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