Hi there, yes, the platter differences are clearly audible. For those with the REF TT, we would recommend to come visit us and listen to them both. We feel the upgrade to EXIUM platter is the way to go for those with the REF TT. Obviously, this is not relevant to those who already have, or still with to buy one of the remaining REF ANNIV TT as the EXIUM platter already comes supplied with such.
Nagra REFERENCE Amp
- Thread starter Zeotrope
- Start date
Yes, you can buy separately the upgrade to EXIUM platter. Though, this is only meaningful and relevant for REF TT owners (REF ANNIV TT owners get the EXIUM platter as part of that system). NAGRA will make the EXIUM platter as an ongoing optional upgrade. Even although the material may be difficult to work with, it's still an alloy unique to them, hence, it is an ongoing upgrade option. Also, the REF ANNIV TT is still not sold out out yet, so we're more than happy to invite anyone interested in one to come visit us in Red Hook Brooklyn for a listen.
I cannot share the exact count,- that can always change, but yes, the the REF ANNIV TT is still available at the time of writing. Once they hit that limit though, then it's gone, hence, that's when we'll specify and encourage all current or ongoing REF TT owners to upgrade to the EXIUM platter. It'll bring REF TT owners closer to what the REF ANNIV TT is based upon materials/performance wise.
Great to hear!
The Exium upgrade for the “regular” Reference TT is solid and has no acrylic window, correct?
The Exium upgrade for the “regular” Reference TT is solid and has no acrylic window, correct?
The REF Pre and Amps are picky about XLR cord wiring. Be careful! I had one amp go into protection mode but it still blew a tweeter.
What I’m finding, with NAGRA’s help, is that the XLR cable should have the Shield connected to Pin 1 on both ends, with no connection to the XLR connector chassis.
In my setup at least, this is the configuration that works. Other variations result in major noise, and even to the speaker tweeter damage.
Use a cheap speaker when you first try it out.
Nagra also removed the Ground Lift option for the pre-amp output, all in pursuit of the simplest circuit and best sound. But this means that the whole setup it more sensitive to ground loops and how you connect the pre to the power amps.
So be careful! Use a cheap speaker first and check the XLR wiring.
As I’ve been researching this topic, I discovered that XLR wiring has no standard. It’s a complete MESS! Ask enough experts and you will get completely different answers. There are a few variables:
- connect Shield to Pin 1?
- connect Shield to Connector Chassis? On one end or both ends?
- connect neutral to Pin 1?
Every permutation of the above makes a big difference, at least in my setup.
What I’m finding, with NAGRA’s help, is that the XLR cable should have the Shield connected to Pin 1 on both ends, with no connection to the XLR connector chassis.
In my setup at least, this is the configuration that works. Other variations result in major noise, and even to the speaker tweeter damage.
Use a cheap speaker when you first try it out.
Nagra also removed the Ground Lift option for the pre-amp output, all in pursuit of the simplest circuit and best sound. But this means that the whole setup it more sensitive to ground loops and how you connect the pre to the power amps.
So be careful! Use a cheap speaker first and check the XLR wiring.
As I’ve been researching this topic, I discovered that XLR wiring has no standard. It’s a complete MESS! Ask enough experts and you will get completely different answers. There are a few variables:
- connect Shield to Pin 1?
- connect Shield to Connector Chassis? On one end or both ends?
- connect neutral to Pin 1?
Every permutation of the above makes a big difference, at least in my setup.
That is both strange and distressing !
You would not have thought shield being connected to 1 in any permutation should make much difference let alone force amp to go into protection mode. If 1 is connected to 3 however who knows what would happen .. but that is just plain wrong !
Of course. I have tried the following:
Unbalanced:
1. DarTZeel 50ohm with RCA connectors
- lots of buzzing noise; unusable
2. Metaxas XLR: this is a 2 pin XLR, so it's not balanced. Sounded great but there was some background noise.
- Pin 2 to Pin 2
- Pin 3 to Pin 3
- Pin 3 connected to XLR connector chassis on the "send" side only
- No Pin 1 connection
Balanced:
3. Mogami XLR from Enoaudio: this is a high quality Japanese cable finished in Germany. It cost about $250 for 10m!
Very quiet, no issues with noise. Sound is 'flat' and lifeless... which makes sense for the price.
4. Luna Noir XLR: originally shipped with 4 conductors:
- Shield connected to XLR connector chassis at each end
- Pin 1 ground connected via dedicated conductors to Pin 1
- Pin 2 to Pin 2
- Pin 3 to Pin 3
Very loud noise - unusable
5. Luna Noir XLR: as above but with Shield disconnected from XLR connector chassis at the "receive" side
Very loud high frequency noise that put the amp into protection mode immediately and blew a tweeter
My media room is powered by one 15A circuit, so all grounds are common [Edit: this is Not a common ground; even though it’s on one circuit, all ALTAIRA need to be connected together or only one AlTAIRA should be used to have a common ground. This could indeed be part of the problem.]. I use the Shunyata Typhon T2 & Denali 6000/v2 and ALTAIRA ground system.
The cable composition of #3, Mogami, works, so the next step is to get Luna to follow that.
The Nagra HD Preamp has a Ground Lift switch for the XLR output. That would have helped here; but Nagra removed it to improve the sound quality (not sure how, that's what they told me).
Using a ground lift is not really a solution. You’re essentially cutting the ground because there is too much noise. The best solution is to find the source of the noise and eliminate it there.
Last edited:
Yes, that's what I always thought as well.
The more I read about it, the more I understand that ground current and/or noise can get into the amplifier if the wiring is not compatible with the amplifier design. The amp then tries to amplify that stray voltage. Keep in mind that it doesn't take much to get full power output from an amp - I think it's just 1-2 volts.
Further research is telling me that most XLR cables should be fine; the key is if the Shields are connected to the XLR connector chassis and not to pin 1. The challenge is that it’s hard to test this without cutting the cable.
Last edited:
I have the nagra hd dac with balanced out .. it's transformer based and works fine with conventional xlr .. it surprises me that nagra would have non standard internals .. if that is the case
We have enough fiddling to do without worrying about that
EDIT: this was resolved. I think the Pre and/or DAC needed to warmup. Does anyone have any experience with a channel balance shift with XLR cable changes? Or from moving them around?
I have a ~2dB channel imbalance now. Not sure if it's because of the XLR cable layout change (moving it and putting it back in a different run), or because of the
It’s the Luna XLR that is non-standard. And probably many other cables! There are no standards that are being adhered to for XLR. And everyone has an opinion on how it should be done.
As long as you use an XLR with shields connected to pin 1, and don’t have ground loops in your system, you should be fine.
I have a ~2dB channel imbalance now. Not sure if it's because of the XLR cable layout change (moving it and putting it back in a different run), or because of the
I didn’t say that.
It’s the Luna XLR that is non-standard. And probably many other cables! There are no standards that are being adhered to for XLR. And everyone has an opinion on how it should be done.
As long as you use an XLR with shields connected to pin 1, and don’t have ground loops in your system, you should be fine.
That's a lot power hungry stuff on one 15 amp circuit. Any chance you can run a few more?
It is, but I don’t even draw 0.5W (8 ohm) of power even at loud listening levels of ~80dB at the listening position!
>105dB efficient speakers + a small room…
I think that any current constraints would be met by the QR/BB in the Shunyata gear…
The Nagra REF Amps are absolutely amazing even at such a low power output. They honestly sound way better than my Kondo Souga 2A3 (8W) and the DarTZeel 108 [yes, as it should, it’s much more expensive]; very impressive for a high powered amp to work so well with horns.
>105dB efficient speakers + a small room…
I think that any current constraints would be met by the QR/BB in the Shunyata gear…
The Nagra REF Amps are absolutely amazing even at such a low power output. They honestly sound way better than my Kondo Souga 2A3 (8W) and the DarTZeel 108 [yes, as it should, it’s much more expensive]; very impressive for a high powered amp to work so well with horns.
Just want to reiterate my findings re: XLR wiring and ground loops:
1. Most people seem to agree that balanced cables should have the shield connected to Pin 1 and not to the XLR connector chassis.
The issue is you cannot tell unless you ask the cable manufacturer!
2. If the components have a ground lift, you can use it; but this is a bandaid. A common ground with noise issues addressed at their root cause is the preferred approach and will sound better than a ground lift.
There is a reason why Nagra removed the ground lift on the REF Pre vs the HD Pre, and it is due to sound quality.
3. It may sound silly, but you will save yourself time and money if you have a ~$100 speaker that you test new setups with which involve balanced cables and ground loops with first; before connecting to your expensive speakers.
4. Using one outlet for all components will eliminate the chance of a ground loop. But that’s not really practical for large/complex systems. What I am doing now is connecting my three Altaira ground hubs together, as suggested by Nagra and Shunyata.
1. Most people seem to agree that balanced cables should have the shield connected to Pin 1 and not to the XLR connector chassis.
The issue is you cannot tell unless you ask the cable manufacturer!
2. If the components have a ground lift, you can use it; but this is a bandaid. A common ground with noise issues addressed at their root cause is the preferred approach and will sound better than a ground lift.
There is a reason why Nagra removed the ground lift on the REF Pre vs the HD Pre, and it is due to sound quality.
3. It may sound silly, but you will save yourself time and money if you have a ~$100 speaker that you test new setups with which involve balanced cables and ground loops with first; before connecting to your expensive speakers.
4. Using one outlet for all components will eliminate the chance of a ground loop. But that’s not really practical for large/complex systems. What I am doing now is connecting my three Altaira ground hubs together, as suggested by Nagra and Shunyata.
Last edited:
The Luna cables are back and installed. FINALLY! They work, and they work really well! They still need to break-in of course; which for solid silver and tinned copper is a long time (>300 hours). But right out of the box, compared to the Mogami, the sound is — as expected — night and day. The detail and realism is out of this world. I’ve never heard a violin tone sound so real in a recording (and I have grown up with a professional violist dad). Bass is huge: deep and detailed - as if two subs were also installed.
In the end, the issue was that the Shield was not connected to Pin 1. It must be - at least with the Nagra REF Pre and Amps. Remember that it’s best to check with a cheap speaker first. Ask the cable manufacturer how they have wired the Shield. Unfortunately, this cannot be checked with a cable tester - although a tester is a good idea to check for any shorts or obvious errors (like connecting Pin 1 / Ground to the XLR connector shell).
In the end, the issue was that the Shield was not connected to Pin 1. It must be - at least with the Nagra REF Pre and Amps. Remember that it’s best to check with a cheap speaker first. Ask the cable manufacturer how they have wired the Shield. Unfortunately, this cannot be checked with a cable tester - although a tester is a good idea to check for any shorts or obvious errors (like connecting Pin 1 / Ground to the XLR connector shell).
all is well that ends well! Congrats and enjoy!
BTW, a phenomenal system you have! From Nagra Ref to Metaxis to Blue Hawaii to JVC25LTD. But I am most intrigued to know more about your custom horns. Had that been discussed anywhere here at length? I suspect it might have been but cannot recall.
Would appreciate a chance to learn more.
Thank you! Yes, it’s been quite a journey, spanning some 30 years. I am just about done, and it feels great.
The main objective was to get a large room sound in a small room, and to have a system that is equally adept for movies as it is for music. Neither are small feats; but I think I managed to achieve both.
I did start a thread about my horns here:
www.whatsbestforum.com
The main objective was to get a large room sound in a small room, and to have a system that is equally adept for movies as it is for music. Neither are small feats; but I think I managed to achieve both.
I did start a thread about my horns here:
Building a world-class Horn system for Small Rooms
After nearly 7 years, I think it's time to create a thread for my journey, in the hopes that it may inspire or help others with their own audiophile ambitions. My hypothesis was that world-class reproduction could be achieved in a small (~11'5" x 12'8" x 7'8) room. I think I have achieved it. I...
www.whatsbestforum.com
Thank you!Thank you! Yes, it’s been quite a journey, spanning some 30 years. I am just about done, and it feels great.
The main objective was to get a large room sound in a small room, and to have a system that is equally adept for movies as it is for music. Neither are small feats; but I think I managed to achieve both.
I did start a thread about my horns here:
Building a world-class Horn system for Small Rooms
After nearly 7 years, I think it's time to create a thread for my journey, in the hopes that it may inspire or help others with their own audiophile ambitions. My hypothesis was that world-class reproduction could be achieved in a small (~11'5" x 12'8" x 7'8) room. I think I have achieved it. I...
Thank you! Will definitely come back to you on that. Currently like the AG Trip G3 after hearing them 2-3 years ago before a lot of the press coverage came out. The first horns that really impressed me and gave rise to my interest.
Similar threads
 | Steve Williams Site Founder | Site Owner | Administrator |  | Ron Resnick Site Owner | Administrator |  | Julian (The Fixer) Website Build | Marketing Managersing |