Natural Sound

[rando]

Thanks Peter, it wasn't immediately apparent what was under the metal plate. Someone else more fully picked up the ball I was making desires known towards making use of. Both photos were appreciated.

Your enjoyably simple solution reminds me of making an Euler spring from sticks and a rectangle of plywood. A friend's kids had a blast jumping on it while their engineer dad stood there in shock at the unexpected and it also working. Fun and (then later) burning.

Had gathered no idea from a deck of cards you would be competitively into badminton. Funny how some sports manage to have only regional pockets of activity allowing clubs and conceivably tournaments among them. Summer being only half gone I might explore digging out an old set from someone's possessions and organizing a game. Surprisingly difficult sport to pick up casually for many including myself. Lots of missing the object intended to be hit only increasing with application of higher force. Bringing into question any potency. Mental or otherwise.

When I think of whip and feather and now gut and feather, I’m drawn to the sheer heft of this turntable and how it has a beguiling ability to portray both the foundation of a pianists left hand and the agility of his right.

There is reason to expect your analog system carries a pictorial sense of motion across with conviction. Blinding light or pitch darkness are progressively tougher to explain. As a grey pitch of rain descends over an entire movement. We still have color as it flows dimly around us until a bolt of lightning sizzles across full spectrum of blindness to blindness. Stark visual sensation removed from sound made by any instrument. A moment we assimilate awareness of naturally occurring multiple times without recognizing it as being any more or less insensate than the onslaught of dreariness.

I question but don't request awareness whether this sphere of natural muting is feasibly possible on one table in your home and not the other. This implies the near exact opposite of serious listening with mind racing to narrowly avoid too much focus. The many seasoned listeners here are capable of keeping you on the jump all month. I'm more curious about where you fall a month after removal is slated. During that slow period of late Summer and early Fall when specifics will be tougher to rely on. Gut and feather inaccuracy plus time for a truer sense of organic variation to sink in.

 

[cdk84]

awsmone wrote: "I also noticed that being in the Northern heminsphere the direction of up is opposite of us in the Southern Hemisphere lol"

NO, that's just the rarified air of audio gear sounding like.... wait for it: music

 

[morricab]

David, can the turntable come visit me in Denmark, when it is tired of Peter of coarse. I won't stress it with endless compares and arm/cartridge changes, just a comfortable prolonged sleep over !

The Horning SATI TT looks very similar in design and comes from
Denmark I believe. Maybe try a demo with that one…I think Audiophile Bill has one…

 

[Lagonda]

The Horning SATI TT looks very similar in design and comes from
Denmark I believe. Maybe try a demo with that one…I think Audiophile Bill has one…

I am sure the Horning is excellent. The Horning does not have a air-bearing, and "only" a 50 kg platter. The AS 2000 has around twice the platter weight, different motor and controller.

 

[awsmone]

I am sure the Horning is excellent. The Horning does not have a air-bearing, and "only" a 50 kg platter. The AS 2000 has around twice the platter weight, different motor and controller.

‘Punny human”

 

[PeterA]

As always, Peter's writeup is clear, detailed, and succinct. ( I agree with TimA's assessment )


My take on the system in its present configuration, with both the Micro Seiki and American Sound turntables is that either offers an immersive listening experience that sounds like live performance. There's simply More of everything retrieved by the American Sound table: more texture, more clarity, more nuance, and presentation that is More convincing --more like a live performance-- than even the exceptional transcription offered by the Micro Seiki SX 8008 II.

When I listen to this system, the words that come to mind are Not audiophile vocabulary: I don't think of soundstage, resolution or extended highs. I am simply involved with the performance, the interpretation of the score. That is what informs both my perception and my discussion when I listen to this system: the music.

And that may be the most succinct explanation I can offer for Natural Sound.

David, thank you again for helping me to assemble this massive table. I could never have done it by myself. After the cartridge/tonearm set up, it was wonderful to share some listening time with you again. I suspect that you have a different appreciation for what is possible from an audio system since your recent return from Utah. Hearing this approach to reproduction in a more familiar system likely helps put your experience in perspective.

I appreciate you taking the time to share some of your thoughts on the listening experience in my living room, and particularly your impression of this very special American Sound turntable. I have felt that this thread suffers from a lack of outside perspectives. Readers are subject mostly to my own thoughts, likely presumed to be very biased. Most visitors who have heard my new system are not members here, or particularly audiophiles, so their impressions remain with them. It is nice to read your thoughts here, and I hope they give those following along an added perspective.

I agree with your sentiment that the system tends to get out of the way and simply allows the music to come through. The listener is left to experience what is on the recording and let his mind go where it will. No analysis is necessary or required to enjoy. The music simply seems to be presented with little influence from the mechanics that make it all possible.

My next trip is up to your place to enjoy those incredible new Mitsubishi Diatones. Boy were you lucky to find a pair of those in such pristine condition. If ddk had not been willing to sell me his Vitavoxs, those are the speakers I would have sought to replace my old Magicos. I had never heard a pair of cone/box speakers present such life-like sound. Congratulations on finding those beauties.

 

[bazelio]

I am sure the Horning is excellent. The Horning does not have a air-bearing, and "only" a 50 kg platter. The AS 2000 has around twice the platter weight, different motor and controller.

Titanium vs Stainless steel if I recall.

 

[Lagonda]

Titanium vs Stainless steel if I recall.

Have you heard one, how do they compare ?

 

[bazelio]

No idea. I'm just saying that titanium vs steel factors in to the platter weight differential and I'm sure to the resulting sound as well. I don't really see these tables as being similar except for in overly-simplified ways. And as an aside, titanium seems counter-intuitive as a platter material to me. But I do recall that the Horning does seem to have a well thought out motor, and that the controller is designed specifically to avoid a jagged speed adjustment profile, taking advantage of the "paltry" 50kg.

 

[morricab]

I am sure the Horning is excellent. The Horning does not have a air-bearing, and "only" a 50 kg platter. The AS 2000 has around twice the platter weight, different motor and controller.

I think they said they tried heavier but preferred 50kg. Does the AS have an air bearing?

 

[PeterA]

I think they said they tried heavier but preferred 50kg. Does the AS have an air bearing?

Yes Brad, the American Sound has an air bearing. It is a more sophisticated and more pure approach than the one used by Micro Seiki. The AS takes the concept further. DDK made a video showing the inertia of the platter rotating on the air bearing. It can be found at the beginning of his thread on this turntable in his sub forum.

 

[microstrip]

I think they said they tried heavier but preferred 50kg. (...)

Considering just the platter weight and size, the more relevant parameter is the moment of inertia.

 

[Lagonda]

Yes Brad, the American Sound has an air bearing. It is a more sophisticated and more pure approach than the one used by Micro Seiki. The AS takes the concept further. DDK made a video showing the inertia of the platter rotating on the air bearing. It can be found at the beginning of his thread on this turntable in his sub forum.

The Micro Seiki has implementations of the vacuum sucktion included in that bearing also ?

 

[PeterA]

The Micro Seiki has implementations of the vacuum sucktion included in that bearing also ?

There is certainly vacuum hold down, but it is not clear to me if that is completely separate from the bearing or not. I suspect it is. I did not investigate that when I had the table apart.

 

[morricab]

Considering just the platter weight and size, the more relevant parameter is the moment of inertia.

There is considerable discussion around the using of very high mass being detrimental due to energy storage in the platter...seems many on WBF don't take much stock in this issue.

 

[Kingsrule]

XV-1, I have not bought the American Sound turntable. It is in my system for about a month for turntable evaluation and for learning. It has been playing music for about five days now. All I can say is that it is the best source component I have heard in my system. I took apart and set up my Micro Seiki turntable and learned as much as I could about its construction. I am still learning about its contribution to the sound of my system. Having a superior turntable to use for direct comparisons is an invaluable opportunity. The man who designed this table in the 1970s was a genius. The fact that David Karmeli has learned from this design and was able to improve on it with his AS 2000 is simply astonishing.

In a couple of words, the difference in sound between my Micro Seiki SX 8000 II and this original American Sound in my system is this: more natural. Everything is taken to the next level and the music being presented in my listening room is more believable. The difference was immediately audible. I looked for my new hidden subwoofers. The bass is not more extended, the foundation to the music is simply better. The first things I noticed were a greater sense of ease and the quality of the bass. Then I noticed the quality of everything improved. Cymbals are cleaner, clearer, and more brassy. Saxophone has more reed, more breath, more bite, more tone. There is more energy filling the room. Scale remains the same, but the sound is bigger. I hear more into the music and get clearer glimpses into what I image the musicians are trying to convey. Differences between recordings are more stark. David talks about "mass" from these super tables. I think he means a solidity and presence to the instruments in space, and a physicality to the presentation, both the images and their context. Everything is more grounded, just like the sound and experience of real music in the concert hall, jazz club, or chamber.

I had a friend over yesterday for some listening. He helped with the set up and moving of the massive base and platter. He and I have both been to Utah to visit ddk, so we have been exposed to an extremely high level of what we refer to as natural sound. Being able to assemble, set up, and then play with such a machine in one’s own system is a great way to learn and appreciate what is possible. I am extremely grateful for the chance to be able to live with this extremely rare table for a month or so. It is an extraordinary opportunity. It has changed my appreciation for the role of a turntable to the overall sound potential of a system.

I have been rereading ddk's thread about this original American Sound, as well as MikeL's and Steve William's accounts of their visits to Utah where they heard this original table with the Neumann cartridge, before the new AS 2000 table was built. Everything they wrote about what they heard is as I now hear it in my own system with these electronics and corner horn speakers. It is also clear that the new vdH Colibri Elite and truly classic SME 3012R are apparently doing nothing to hold back the sound. The system enables me to hear clearly what this turntable does to the listening experience, and why it is such an achievement.


View attachment 95501

Side by side the Micro Seiki looks like a entry level tt

The AS1000 is just beautiful....

 

[Lagonda]

There is certainly vacuum hold down, but it is not clear to me if that is completely separate from the bearing or not. I suspect it is. I did not investigate that when I had the table apart.

Looks like the vacuum is going trough the center tap, and the "float" pressure is going to the side of the bearing.

 

[cdk84]

Morricab wrote: "There is considerable discussion around the using of very high mass being detrimental due to energy storage in the platter...seems many on WBF don't take much stock in this issue."

Hello Morricab: We are not yet acquainted. Please let me introduce myself as another member of this Forum, and a person who has benefited from hearing Peter's system, including the most recent iteration which includes the American Sound turntable.

In my ( occasionally outspoken ) opinion, it's very satisfying to see Some of the discussion posted on the topics that course through WBF. The opportunity to express opinions here, to learn from others, and to make the occasional mis-step --of which I have been guilty More than once-- is all part of the learning experience.


I wanted to be succinct in my discussion and appraisal of Peter's system. If I may backtrack for a moment, I would add that I heard Peter's present system, sans American Sound, when he first assembled it and began tuning.

That experience was so Natural, and so rich that I felt one note in particular in my heart. No, I'm not being romantic or pie-in-the-sky: I felt that particular frequency resonate in a way that was part physical and part emotional, but indisputably in my heart.

Based upon that sensation, I picked up my guitar again after nearly fifty years; that's how strong an impression I had. I bought an inexpensive guitar, to see if I would play consistently, and I did. Then I purchased a sublime instrument and practiced until I was good enough to play for my wife, bucking her up as she battled cancer. There's more to that story, but this is Peter's thread on Natural Sound.

I will simply say that the integrity of David Karmeli's inquiry and design work, along with Peter's diligence in pursuing and implementing lessons learned from David have paid returns for me, as well as Peter I suspect, that I simply did not foresee, so *a Loud Shout-Out to David and to Peter* for bringing music back into my life, for helping me find my way back to something that has been dormant for some time, and something that I need very much at the moment, and going forward. I feel I have a karmic debt to pay this integrity of learning forward in some way, hence my stated appreciation for this Forum and the opportunities it offers.

As to "the considerable discussion... of very high mass being detrimental due to energy storage in the platter" I would say, having listened to two generations of American Sound turntables, for more than 40 hours, that it is Extremely Hard for me to imagine more Natural Sound being available than is transmitted by those tables. Unless or until David Karmeli were to somehow work further magic on the turntable of his own design.

This has been quite a voyage: as a spectator, and sometimes a participant in a minor way, this has been a genuinely rare privilege, and results in my listening to music, not gear. An enviable outcome indeed.

I am profoundly grateful to have been the beneficiary of David Karmeli's brilliance and Peter's implementation of the lessons learned from David's generosity of spirit.

 

[PeterA]

A few weeks ago I posted two videos of St. James Infirmary directly comparing two cartridges on the same arm on my Micro Seiki turntable. I transfered that same SME 3012R tonearm, phono cable, and the vdH Colibri Elite cartridge that I used in that first video to the American Sound turntable, and made a new video this afternoon. Here is a direct comparison of the two turntables with the arm going through the same Lamm LP2.1 Deluxe phono input. The only variable, other that the two turntables, is the location and support for the two turntables. It is a pretty direct comparison.

Micro Seiki table:

American Sound table:

 

[Argonaut]

A few weeks ago I posted two videos of St. James Infirmary directly comparing two cartridges on the same arm on my Micro Seiki turntable. I transfered that same SME 3012R tonearm, phono cable, and the vdH Colibri Elite cartridge that I used in that first video to the American Sound turntable, and made a new video this afternoon. Here is a direct comparison of the two turntables with the arm going through the same Lamm LP2.1 Deluxe phono input. The only variable, other that the two turntables, is the location and support for the two turntables. It is a pretty direct comparison.

Micro Seiki table:

American Sound table:

No 2 for me by some margin Peter … Your in trouble now