Natural Sound

[PeterA]

Just posted because in this particular case I was really interested in your videos - my accessibility to the AS2000 is reduced - and audiophile curiosity won!

Fransisco, I appreciate that, but you are confusing the turntables. I have on loan an original American Sound TT. This is extremely rare and was built in the 1970s in Japan. It is also referred to as the AS 1000. I do not have the AS 2000 which is David's design from a few years ago. The AS2000 were produced and sold and are now gone. That is a different turntable and sounds different still. There is more access to David's AS2000 on the web and in systems with videos. Tang has one and there are a few set up photos in threads here. Also Rockitman's thread on the table. Both threads are fascinating and give much information. I have heard the AS2000 a few times in different settings and compared it directly to the AF1. It is superb.

As far as I know, mine are the only videos of the original American Sound (AS1000) in existence. There is almost zero accessibility to this table. One can see and touch and listen with an invitation to Utah. A few people have seen and heard it in my house. Ron, Steve, Marty, and a few others have written about this original AS in a few threads in ddk's turntable forum, and it was those reports and David's reputation that provided the interest in his new design.

 

[leyenda]

The AS1000 with the rough texture adds an extra dimension to the looks, congrats Peter!

 

[microstrip]

Fransisco, I appreciate that, but you are confusing the turntables. I have on loan an original American Sound TT. This is extremely rare and was built in the 1970s in Japan. It is also referred to as the AS 1000. I do not have the AS 2000 which is David's design from a few years ago. (...)

Thanks Peter - just edited the turntable designation in my post.

 

[awsmone]

The AS1000 with the rough texture adds an extra dimension to the looks, congrats Peter!

That seems to have been a golden age for Japanese TTs
Peter A thanks for clarifying what this is I had not realised the huge gap between 1000 and 2000 in time of production

 

[bazelio]

Peter, thank you for providing the comparison. it sounds to me like the 1000 has superior clarity and I get the sense that it presents a larger scale. Even in the video, it just seemed like its sound filled the space more. But that could have been the loudness difference, too. I don't think the hidden subwoofer effect comes through very well in the videos though, and I actually doubt the phone mic is capable of capturing it. But what I do get from the videos is that the AS1000 sounds more like musicians in the room while the Micro Seiki sounds more like playback of a recording. The Micro Seiki actually sounds veiled in comparison. Quite a difference and one that gives pause for sure. I'm thinking that perhaps the Vyger Atlantis is a better, more natural sounding table than the Micro Seiki.

It'd be great to hear more comparisons of both tables, especially if they were level matched.

 

[Ron Resnick]

If you have those table and arm you must find yourself the Neumann DST

How am I going to get an NOS Neumann DST?

 

[tima]

The second one is much better - nuance, more density to the tone, bass, and dynamic range, music flows more than the MS 8000.

I finally had a chance to listen to the St. James videos with the Micro-Seiki and the American Sound 1000. On my desktop computer, so ... a rather analytical take:

With the AS 1000, I could easily hear more harmonic information, more nuance, from the rythm section (espec. baritone sax, clarinet) and from the 'moaners' before Armstrong starts singing. There was one particular standing bass pluck near that point that was particularly wealthy.

When Armstrong starts singing solo I have a greater sense of his 'presence' v the M-S - though it was not missing there. I don't want to describe that in terms of dimensionality. It had the same impact as I heard from listening to Ella standing before us singing 'Take it Easy' at David's in Utah, but just slightly different - Ella was there there. Not sure how this was recorded I don't think he was in a booth - struggling a bit to get this right ... when he was with the moaners for just a few bars ("yeah yeah yeah", twice ~ 1:32) he is integrated, then he splits away and slips into solo. Armstrong is individuated as the moaners are not. In this case I do not have a sense of him in front of the band as Ella was next to her guitarist, more so of his head. A wee bit of the recording process peaking through or just me.

I find this sense of 'presence' (there-ness?) a key contributor of natural character of the sound.

And lawdy that final cymbal strike goes on foh-ever, 9 seconds? It's all a great treat - thank you Peter for doing this wonderful comparison.

 

[bonzo75]

I'm thinking that perhaps the Vyger Atlantis is a better, more natural sounding table than the Micro Seiki.

Someone who had two MS 8000 with 4 SME 3012r arms on each, after I visited him suggested the Vyger since he already had the red sparrow cartridge on one (etsuro gold, zyx, sumile, and some other carts). He bought two Vyger Indians and it easily bettered the MS. I will do a write up on his system and on various Vyger systems

 

[ddk]

Peter, thank you for providing the comparison. it sounds to me like the 1000 has superior clarity and I get the sense that it presents a larger scale. Even in the video, it just seemed like its sound filled the space more. But that could have been the loudness difference, too. I don't think the hidden subwoofer effect comes through very well in the videos though, and I actually doubt the phone mic is capable of capturing it. But what I do get from the videos is that the AS1000 sounds more like musicians in the room while the Micro Seiki sounds more like playback of a recording. The Micro Seiki actually sounds veiled in comparison. Quite a difference and one that gives pause for sure. I'm thinking that perhaps the Vyger Atlantis is a better, more natural sounding table than the Micro Seiki.

It'd be great to hear more comparisons of both tables, especially if they were level matched.

Someone who had two MS 8000 with 4 SME 3012r arms on each, after I visited him suggested the Vyger since he already had the red sparrow cartridge on one (etsuro gold, zyx, sumile, and some other carts). He bought two Vyger Indians and it easily bettered the MS. I will do a write up on his system and on various Vyger systems

IME they’re not even close, even the RX-5000 is way more natural and superior sounding in every respect including the build quality, just ask @Audiophile Bill about that. MS8000mk2 is yet another giant level up!

david

 

[ddk]

How am I going to get an NOS Neumann DST?

NOS? If you’re very, very, lucky and willing to open your checkbook you might be able to get one with low hours. Problem is that there are many others with open checkbooks looking for them too.

david

 

[Tango]

How am I going to get an NOS Neumann DST?

You dont need a NOS. Get one without refurbishing and you will have the best front of any format since you already own one of the AS2000. One day you will understand why ddk doesnt do LT arm and tape. When you have "that" sound you just dont need anything else.

 

[Ron Resnick]

NOS? If you’re very, very, lucky and willing to open your checkbook you might be able to get one with low hours. Problem is that there are many others with open checkbooks looking for them too.

david

I was kidding with the NOS.

Thank you, David, for replying.

These posts on the AS-1000 are making me very excited to get your/my turntable after these all these years!

 

[bazelio]

Someone who had two MS 8000 with 4 SME 3012r arms on each, after I visited him suggested the Vyger since he already had the red sparrow cartridge on one (etsuro gold, zyx, sumile, and some other carts). He bought two Vyger Indians and it easily bettered the MS. I will do a write up on his system and on various Vyger systems

It seems like Vyger does density and clarity where MS 8000 might not do both? Curious to read your first hand feedback as I'm only guessing.

 

[PeterA]

Snap, crackle, POP. Holy bits Batman, THIS is digital!

The first video is recorded louder, so volume should be turned down a couple clicks and second video turned up for better comparison.

Here is some pop music that I really like. When touring schools with my daughters, the girls a cappella choruses all sang this song to impress the visiting kids with parents. I was hooked when I first heard it on the car radio. The fascinating thing is that even though this recording is a digital assembly on a computer and in the studio, it sounds wonderful to me. Released on vinyl for the young, it is digital silent in the grooves. My kids used to love hearing this on the big system. I still do.

What bass from 18 SET watts and two way horns! Both tables sound pretty good with this, IMO. Having fun now turning it up. Videos can't do this real justice.

 

[bazelio]

I don't think the 1000 separates itself as much here but is still preferred. The MS sounds a little smoothed over comparatively. Nuances are just better with the 1000 but you really have to be listening for it with this record. You can hear it in the bass as a texture or lack thereof. Both sound lacking in bass vitality in the videos, though. I know the recording and bass impact should be over the top thunderous. But I'd guess again it's a phone recording limitation.

I'm using a AK4490 based DAC and in-ear monitors now for listening to these.

 

[PeterA]

I agree Brian. The videos do not present the same that I’m hearing in room. There are limitations to videos but I posted them to supplement what I could say in a written description and just for the fun of it to give people an idea about relative differences. There are no videos of this turntable playing music in any system anywhere and few people will ever be able to hear it in person. In that sense, one might consider this to be the next best thing. Let’s just say it’s a sampling.

As I’ve written many times, very few people are actually willing to take the risk of posting a video of their own system because of the comments it will generate.

 

[Al M.]

As I’ve written many times, very few people are actually willing to take the risk of posting a video of their own system because of the comments it will generate.

For those who do not want to post videos this is not about not "willing to take the risk", Peter. It is about a reasonable analysis of the grave limitations of videos.

To each their own. Those who post videos are not in any way more "brave" in my opinion. They make a different decision, that's all.

 

[PeterA]

For those who do not want to post videos this is not about not "willing to take the risk", Peter. It is about a reasonable analysis of the grave limitations of videos.

To each their own. Those who post videos are not in any way more "brave" in my opinion. They make a different decision, that's all.

I agree with that Al. I suspect there are many reasons people do or don’t post videos. Just like with varying levels of experience, I tend to weigh comments differently depending on whether the person commenting has made his own videos and understands the challenges and what they represent.

 

[the sound of Tao]

I agree Brian. The videos do not present the same that I’m hearing in room. There are limitations to videos but I posted them to supplement what I could say in a written description and just for the fun of it to give people an idea about relative differences. There are no videos of this turntable playing music in any system anywhere and few people will ever be able to hear it in person. In that sense, one might consider this to be the next best thing. Let’s just say it’s a sampling.

As I’ve written many times, very few people are actually willing to take the risk of posting a video of their own system because of the comments it will generate.

The AS1000 videos that you’ve shared here have been an invaluable highlight Peter. Many thanks. Getting these glimpses into the unobtainium and the hints as to the essential characteristic nature of it and then referencing against the MS bring to life your observations on it and on the shifts that it can help create in a system.

While we can’t draw absolute conclusions from a few video compares these help build perspective and understanding and open discussion and are great opportunities for learning. That you share your system in this way and open yourself to the kinds of feedback that at times can be not anchored in a genuine balanced appreciation of the limitations of video in terms of full assessment is to be very much applauded.

It would be great if more were open to sharing this way though I understand why many might not. Sharing works in progress always involves allowing yourself to vulnerable moments. Even though it is a limited way of experiencing it still tells part of the story or helps to illustrate the story. PS I love your enthusiasm for your system… if after all these years and crazy heroic effort and even more crazy spends if we don’t love what we have maybe we should start to question what we are doing just a bit more. Whatever music you can share on the AS while it’s there is much appreciated. If I was in a position to do it I’d love either of those turntables. It’s nice to get a small share of the experience.

 

[morricab]

I agree Brian. The videos do not present the same that I’m hearing in room. There are limitations to videos but I posted them to supplement what I could say in a written description and just for the fun of it to give people an idea about relative differences. There are no videos of this turntable playing music in any system anywhere and few people will ever be able to hear it in person. In that sense, one might consider this to be the next best thing. Let’s just say it’s a sampling.

As I’ve written many times, very few people are actually willing to take the risk of posting a video of their own system because of the comments it will generate.

Peter, invest a few hundred in good recording equipment for your videos rather than making excuses for subpar ones. You have obviously want to post videos so make it count…and make sure the levels are the same.