Natural Sound

[Audiophile Bill]

Bill I think you should come to where I live… a few years ago Lonely Planet travellers guide voted my small bogan inhabited (in truth I love my tribe) city of Newcastle Australia as one of the top 10 cities to visit in the world… ahead of London and Paris this is where I swim, have a coffee and exercise Cleo my puppy woofer every day… this is probably why I haven’t got my subwoofer built well that’s my excuse lol.


Newcastle’s bathers way coastal walk

OMG. I can’t believe you live in Newcastle. My wife’s brother moved there 4 years ago for work and refuses to come home. It is highly likely we will visit in next year or so!

 

[the sound of Tao]

OMG. I can’t believe you live in Newcastle. My wife’s brother moved there 4 years ago for work and refuses to come home. It is highly likely we will visit in next year or so!

Far out… that is freakish Bill. We live in a genuinely modestly sized city and mostly avoid letting people know about how good it is here and even my students in Sydney are surprised how good it is up here when they visit… though I do have occasional moments of deep pride. Will have to get moving on the new folded baffle horn speakers then… PS apologies Peter for taking us into the wilderness… hope you ignore the distractions and do more videos soon

 

[bonzo75]

OMG. I can’t believe you live in Newcastle. My wife’s brother moved there 4 years ago for work and refuses to come home. It is highly likely we will visit in next year or so!

So you will go to meet your wife's brother and excuse yourself to go meet a fellow horn builder? Easier to tell her you have an ex you need to catch up with

 

[rando]

Yes, most folks with a numerated volume control will be aware of their usual volume levels.

Your comment was funny despite the great pain it conveyed. Never understood why people from Northern climates would move to the tropics myself.

Impression gained thus far is Peter actually enjoys his system enough to forget what the internet will think of inconsistencies indicative of fun they aren't having. Quoting a reply from his life altering trip to Utah thread.

Very nice posts Peter. I read them all, and without a break. Sometimes you're sorta spinning wheels but it's nothing but clarity here.

 

[Argonaut]

@PeterA

Peter, with reference to your disparate pair of St James Infirmary videos you may recall that I was the first member to respond favourably, and I continue to enjoy your subsequent youtube recordings , a point upon which other respondents might like to reflect.

My post #3,424 was not refering to your personal system, or video’s thereof, as I was fully aware that your equipment does not support the type of volume control that I mentioned in said post, again a point that certain other respondents who waded in swinging the wrong end of the stick that they had seized might also like to reflect upon.

Post #3,424 was purely intended to support the fundamental of the point that Brad had been making regarding the principle of volume matching a hypothetical system used to record audio vid’s with the intention to compare one or more disparate elements within that system.

As a general principle taking the time to ensure a decibel level playing field , should ones equipment enable one to do so , between recording seems like prudent advice to me.

 

[ddk]

I’ve had 4 x 15 inch woofers, stands, baffles, and assorted crossover parts and hookup wire to make up a pair of slotted OB subs and even have a second LM Set sitting there waiting to power it all up… sitting there for over 3 months… still all waiting waiting waiting … I tell everyone I’m busy lol.

Shame on you Graham, building a pair of large subs is nothing compared to cutting a piece of string and creating a knot out of thin air!

david

 

[Tango]

Shame on you Graham, building a pair of large subs is nothing compared to cutting a piece of string and creating a knot out of thin air!

david

Sensei. Are you bitchin again?

 

[ddk]

Sensei. Are you bitchin again?

Nooooo, just chewing Graham down!
david

 

[microstrip]

(...) Here I am three years later confirming that statement. I’m using what I can find around the house, which is dental floss.

Something we will happily agree on - I have been using several brands of dental floss in my Forsell Signature with air bearing flywheel for more than 20 years.

 

[PeterA]

Something we will happily agree on - I have been using several brands of dental floss in my Forsell Signature with air bearing flywheel for more than 20 years.

I made a new dental floss belt today. It is essentially a very small, very thin, non-stretch flat belt, 1/4 the width of the Micro Seiki belt. The knot is on the outside and the flat loop has no twists in it. It works greats, but it has a thin wax film on it. I removed most of the wax with alcohol and residue from the platter. I will soon compare this to an actual thread for an even smaller contact patch. This sounds better than the Micro seiki belt which sounds better than the stretchy rubber belt.

Each step is one closer to system optimization and sounds a bit more natural.

 

[the sound of Tao]

Nooooo, just chewing Graham down!
david

Ah but that’s not soooo bad , it’s the sight of the lovely super luxe stainless stands that you’ve done for Tang’s Klangfilms that is the truly on point deadly slap David… omg there goes the affordable powder coated or anodised steel frames I had been thinking about for the new folded OB horns It seems there are going to be more temptations and inspirations ahead and time to be lifting my game a bit lol

 

[PeterA]

XV-1 said:
You need to add in more natural per Peter's new descriptor.

does that mean the natural before more natural is actually unnatural?

XV-1, Think of it this way: Someone at a hunter's club dinner party asks for his meat to be served rare. Another guy asks for his to be served slightly rarer. The vegetarian who hears about it later gets angry, not because he was never invited, but because he does not know what fresh meat tastes like.

One rare and highly coveted vintage turntable sounds very natural. Another rarer and unobtainable vintage table sounds even more natural. I describe one as natural sounding and the other as more natural sounding, because they both sound more like real music than any turntable I have ever heard except for the one Tang has.

For those who can not grasp the simplicity of that and what it really means, I added a few non audiophile words to describe what I heard from the recording.

Edit: I copied this post and my response from Tang’s turntable thread. It’s a subject that we’ve been discussing here.

 

[Folsom]

I made a new dental floss belt today. It is essentially a very small, very thin, non-stretch flat belt, 1/4 the width of the Micro Seiki belt. The knot is on the outside and the flat loop has no twists in it. It works greats, but it has a thin wax film on it. I removed most of the wax with alcohol and residue from the platter. I will soon compare this to an actual thread for an even smaller contact patch. This sounds better than the Micro seiki belt which sounds better than the stretchy rubber belt.

Not wax, it’s PFAS.

 

[ddk]

Ah but that’s not soooo bad , it’s the sight of the lovely super luxe stainless stands that you’ve done for Tang’s Klangfilms that is the truly on point deadly slap David… omg there goes the affordable powder coated or anodised steel frames I had been thinking about for the new folded OB horns It seems there are going to be more temptations and inspirations ahead and time to be lifting my game a bit lol

As you know the hardest part is finding competent craftsmen who can materialize your fantasy!

david

 

[the sound of Tao]

As you know the hardest part is finding competent craftsmen who can materialize your fantasy!

david

That’s such a big thing for sure, finding great trades to work with and who will work well with you and take your vision through and develop it with you and really deliver… Bill (aka Audiophile Bill) has the great advantage that he is his own artisan… though I’d figure he’d also be a fairly tough boss for himself as well.

 

[PeterA]

I continue to read claims of exclusivity and elitism regarding natural sound, both in this thread and in some others. Here are my thoughts on the subject of exclusivity:

Those making the claims have not articulated clearly why they think pursuing a natural sound approach to reproduction is exclusive. Is it about some of the gear which is rare and expensive? Is it about the language that is slightly different? Or is it about the approach towards re-creating the experience of listening to live music?

One‘s system approach or philosophy is simply that, anyone chooses to pursue his goals how he wishes. There’s nothing exclusive about that. I began down the path of natural sound with simple set up techniques that cost me nothing. I shared those techniques having learned them from David with others here on my Sublime Sound thread. Anyone could have read that thread and experimented to see if the approach worked for them. There is nothing exclusive about that.

Dumping audiophile power cords or room treatments or building steel plates for gear support is not exclusive. It might be considered unconventional though. I would argue it is the opposite of exclusive. Even before I had the Ching Cheng power cords, I preferred the gears' stock power cords to the audiophile cords I tried because they sounded more natural to me. Changes to my electrical infrastructure are hardly exclusive. Neither is having zero toe in for speaker orientation.

The natural sound approach is not gear specific. The result is what matters, and that is specific. Choosing the right gear and set it up properly is what leads to the result. Perhaps what some are complaining about is the notion that some audio gear is actually better than the rest. There is good, better, and ultimately, the best, just like in everything else. Not everything component gets respect or a trophy, and quality and merit and performance matter to us. What is best is often exclusive. Stereophile’s annual list of components is exclusive. It excludes the gear not deemed worthy of the list. We all carry around lists of gear that we think sounds the best to us. How is that not exclusive?

My Micro Seiki turntable sounds better than the Denon turntable I had in college. I prefer it and most would agree that it sounds better. The fact that the Micro Seiki or even more so the AS2000 or original American Sound is rare and expensive and at an extremely high level of quality and performance, makes it by definition, exclusive. The Nagra turntable with only 75 copies is also exclusive. As is the new mega Gryphon amplifier or the Wilson WAMM. So is Tang’s Neumann cartridge or David's Bionors. This can not be denied. These are exclusive and elite products.

No one is claiming that the approach to natural sound reproduction is better than anything else. I am claiming that it is what I prefer over other approaches I have tried. Those who pursue it are not claiming exclusivity. Through my thread, I am actually sharing the approach with everyone who chooses to read it and experiment with it. It is necessary to be open to different ideas, though. It is not about the mainstream or status quo. At times, it is an outright rejection of that. Is that what makes it seem elitist and why people seem offended?

What is not available to everyone is some of the gear some people use when assembling their systems. There are reasons for that, mostly cost and availability. Sometimes space is an issue. Often it is lack of exposure, but this forum is good at exposing people to the unusual and rare. Natural sound is not just about the gear, it is also about the set up, the approach and moving toward a specific goal. Perhaps some feel the approach is exclusive because they do not seem to understand what it is that natural sound is trying to achieve.

There is hypocrisy in not acknowledging that we all make choices that exclude options that we do not like. Do we not all have varying approaches to the hobby and choose different gear and set up techniques? In a way, is not any highly individual pursuit that involves making choices not somewhat exclusive? And are not some things a little or a lot better than others, making them just a bit more elite? Just look at the name of this forum and the influence it has. Some manufacturers use WBF exclusively for their brand marketing and its reach to potential clients.

 

[Rensselaer]

I continue to read claims of exclusivity and elitism regarding natural sound, both in this thread and in some others. Here are my thoughts on the subject of exclusivity:

Those making the claims have not articulated clearly why they think pursuing a natural sound approach to reproduction is exclusive. Is it about some of the gear which is rare and expensive? Is it about the language that is slightly different? Or is it about the approach towards re-creating the experience of listening to live music?

One‘s system approach or philosophy is simply that, anyone chooses to pursue his goals how he wishes. There’s nothing exclusive about that. I began down the path of natural sound with simple set up techniques that cost me nothing. I shared those techniques having learned them from David with others here on my Sublime Sound thread. Anyone could have read that thread and experimented to see if the approach worked for them. There is nothing exclusive about that.

Dumping audiophile power cords or room treatments or building steel plates for gear support is not exclusive. It might be considered unconventional though. I would argue it is the opposite of exclusive. Even before I had the Ching Cheng power cords, I preferred the gears' stock power cords to the audiophile cords I tried because they sounded more natural to me. Changes to my electrical infrastructure are hardly exclusive. Neither is having zero toe in for speaker orientation.

The natural sound approach is not gear specific. The result is what matters, and that is specific. Choosing the right gear and set it up properly is what leads to the result. Perhaps what some are complaining about is the notion that some audio gear is actually better than the rest. There is good, better, and ultimately, the best, just like in everything else. Not everything component gets respect or a trophy, and quality and merit and performance matter to us. What is best is often exclusive. Stereophile’s annual list of components is exclusive. It excludes the gear not deemed worthy of the list. We all carry around lists of gear that we think sounds the best to us. How is that not exclusive?

My Micro Seiki turntable sounds better than the Denon turntable I had in college. I prefer it and most would agree that it sounds better. The fact that the Micro Seiki or even more so the AS2000 or original American Sound is rare and expensive and at an extremely high level of quality and performance, makes it by definition, exclusive. The Nagra turntable with only 75 copies is also exclusive. As is the new mega Gryphon amplifier or the Wilson WAMM. So is Tang’s Neumann cartridge or David's Bionors.

No one is claiming that the approach to natural sound reproduction is better than anything else. I am claiming that it is what I prefer over other approaches I have tried. Those who pursue it are not claiming exclusivity. Through my thread, I am actually sharing the approach with everyone who chooses to read it and experiment with it. It is necessary to be open to different ideas, though. It is not about the mainstream or status quo. At times, it is an outright rejection of that. Is that what makes it seem elitist and why people seem offended?

What is not available to everyone is some of the gear some people use when assembling their systems. There are reasons for that, mostly cost and availability. Sometimes space is an issue. Often it is lack of exposure, but this forum is good at exposing people to the unusual and rare. Natural sound is not just about the gear, it is also about the set up, the approach and moving toward a specific goal. Perhaps some feel the approach is exclusive because they do not seem to understand what it is that natural sound is trying to achieve.

There is hypocrisy in not acknowledging that we all make choices that exclude options that we do not like. Do we not all have varying approaches to the hobby and choose different gear and set up techniques? In a way, is not any highly individual pursuit that involves making choices not somewhat exclusive? And are not some things a little or a lot better than others, making them just a bit more elite? Just look at the name of this forum and the influence it has. Some manufacturers use WBF exclusively for their brand marketing and its reach to potential clients.

Well said!

 

[Audire]

I continue to read claims of exclusivity and elitism regarding natural sound, both in this thread and in some others. Here are my thoughts on the subject of exclusivity:

Those making the claims have not articulated clearly why they think pursuing a natural sound approach to reproduction is exclusive. Is it about some of the gear which is rare and expensive? Is it about the language that is slightly different? Or is it about the approach towards re-creating the experience of listening to live music?

One‘s system approach or philosophy is simply that, anyone chooses to pursue his goals how he wishes. There’s nothing exclusive about that. I began down the path of natural sound with simple set up techniques that cost me nothing. I shared those techniques having learned them from David with others here on my Sublime Sound thread. Anyone could have read that thread and experimented to see if the approach worked for them. There is nothing exclusive about that.

Dumping audiophile power cords or room treatments or building steel plates for gear support is not exclusive. It might be considered unconventional though. I would argue it is the opposite of exclusive. Even before I had the Ching Cheng power cords, I preferred the gears' stock power cords to the audiophile cords I tried because they sounded more natural to me. Changes to my electrical infrastructure are hardly exclusive. Neither is having zero toe in for speaker orientation.

The natural sound approach is not gear specific. The result is what matters, and that is specific. Choosing the right gear and set it up properly is what leads to the result. Perhaps what some are complaining about is the notion that some audio gear is actually better than the rest. There is good, better, and ultimately, the best, just like in everything else. Not everything component gets respect or a trophy, and quality and merit and performance matter to us. What is best is often exclusive. Stereophile’s annual list of components is exclusive. It excludes the gear not deemed worthy of the list. We all carry around lists of gear that we think sounds the best to us. How is that not exclusive?

My Micro Seiki turntable sounds better than the Denon turntable I had in college. I prefer it and most would agree that it sounds better. The fact that the Micro Seiki or even more so the AS2000 or original American Sound is rare and expensive and at an extremely high level of quality and performance, makes it by definition, exclusive. The Nagra turntable with only 75 copies is also exclusive. As is the new mega Gryphon amplifier or the Wilson WAMM. So is Tang’s Neumann cartridge or David's Bionors.

No one is claiming that the approach to natural sound reproduction is better than anything else. I am claiming that it is what I prefer over other approaches I have tried. Those who pursue it are not claiming exclusivity. Through my thread, I am actually sharing the approach with everyone who chooses to read it and experiment with it. It is necessary to be open to different ideas, though. It is not about the mainstream or status quo. At times, it is an outright rejection of that. Is that what makes it seem elitist and why people seem offended?

What is not available to everyone is some of the gear some people use when assembling their systems. There are reasons for that, mostly cost and availability. Sometimes space is an issue. Often it is lack of exposure, but this forum is good at exposing people to the unusual and rare. Natural sound is not just about the gear, it is also about the set up, the approach and moving toward a specific goal. Perhaps some feel the approach is exclusive because they do not seem to understand what it is that natural sound is trying to achieve.

There is hypocrisy in not acknowledging that we all make choices that exclude options that we do not like. Do we not all have varying approaches to the hobby and choose different gear and set up techniques? In a way, is not any highly individual pursuit that involves making choices not somewhat exclusive? And are not some things a little or a lot better than others, making them just a bit more elite? Just look at the name of this forum and the influence it has. Some manufacturers use WBF exclusively for their brand marketing and its reach to potential clients.

Peter, as usual you (as many others here) are very well spoken - an audiophile gift. Thanks for sharing your journey and wisdom.

I'm still attempting to wrap my head around the natural sound concept. I desire a venue- like sound in my home. Presently, I'm in the process of experimenting with different amps to help further achieve this. It has sounded excellent with every new amp that I've demoed, however I prefer some amps more than others - i.e. the norm ...

This said, does one have to remove name brand power cords and room treatments to achieve natural sound, or what I call venue-like sound? Perhaps this isn't what you meant to convey? You stated, "Dumping audiophile power cords or room treatments or building steel plates for gear support is not exclusive." The Sidney Opera house and others have acoustical treatments and have what I would call natural sound; true venue sound.

So, I guess my question is: "Are there different types or flavors of natural sound?"

The reason I ask is that I'm considering building a dedicated listening room. I'm presently planning to use acoustical treatments (Vicoustic). My thought process here is since Opera houses, recording studios, etc. use acoustical treatments to deliver their wonderful sound, then shouldn't we do the same when we listen?

Thanks for some clarification on this matter.

 

[PeterA]

Peter, as usual you (as many others here) are very well spoken - an audiophile gift. Thanks for sharing your journey and wisdom.

I'm still attempting to wrap my head around the natural sound concept. I desire a venue- like sound in my home. Presently, I'm in the process of experimenting with different amps to help further achieve this. It has sounded excellent with every new amp that I've demoed, however I prefer some amps more than others - i.e. the norm ...

This said, does one have to remove name brand power cords and room treatments to achieve natural sound, or what I call venue-like sound? Perhaps this isn't what you meant to convey? You stated, "Dumping audiophile power cords or room treatments or building steel plates for gear support is not exclusive." The Sidney Opera house and others have acoustical treatments and have what I would call natural sound; true venue sound.

So, I guess my question is: "Are there different types or flavors of natural sound?"

The reason I ask is that I'm considering building a dedicated listening room. I'm presently planning to use acoustical treatments (Vicoustic). My thought process here is since Opera houses, recording studios, etc. use acoustical treatments to deliver their wonderful sound, then shouldn't we do the same when we listen?

Thanks for some clarification on this matter.

Hello Joe, Thank you for the kind words. I appreciate them and am glad you are finding something of value in this thread.

I have been reading about your system and amplifier auditions. I envy your idea of building a dedicated room. My advice there is just not to make it an isolated cave but rather a welcoming space for others to enjoy your system with your. Ultimately, that is more satisfying. I had two pairs of Magico speakers and continue to read about your system with interest. There is a lot to address in your post, but I will try to get to the heart of the matter, as I see it.

I am not saying that everyone, or even anyone has to remove name brand power cords and room treatments to achieve natural sound. I am saying that doing those things made my Sublime Sound (Magico Q3/Pass) system sound more natural. You can read about my two years of experimenting with set up in my thread about that system. Speaker orientation also had a profound effect. Removing audiophile acoustic treatments does not mean that my living room suddenly became untreated. The furniture, rug, blinds, all act as room treatment and effect the sound. Boston Symphony Hall and the Vienna Opera House do not have acoustic panels hanging all over them like some other more modern halls. Acoustic treatments alter the sound. I think people should experiment and decide what works best for their rooms and their tastes.

The power cords and steel plates also have very specific effects on the sound. They require experimentation too. The idea behind natural sound is that there exists the specific target of live acoustic sound and it is the reference against which all decisions about a system and its set up are based. That live sound is natural, and anything one does regarding his system either gets him closer or further from that target.

My Micro Seiki turntable sounds natural. The American Sound table sounds more natural. They have a similar flavor. The Thorens Reference turntable that I heard at David's house, has a different flavor, but it still sounds natural. This has to do with degree of resolution and how it is presented. Boston and Vienna sound different, as do other venues. People may prefer one to the others. We hear live instruments in these places, and we instantly know they are live. It is because they sound natural. If something does not sound natural, something is wrong.

True venue sound does not depend on using audiophile acoustic treatments, fancy power cords, or isolation products. It depends on gear choice and system set up. Good electricity delivery helps as a foundation to good sound. There are different degrees and levels of success, but if it resembles the real thing, and is convincing and believable, and ultimately creates the experience of listening to live music, it is natural sound. For more detail about this, you could read the set up experiments described in the last eighteen months of so of my Sublime Sound thread to the beginning of this Natural Sound thread.

 

[Audire]

Hello Joe, Thank you for the kind words. I appreciate them and am glad you are finding something of value in this thread.

I have been reading about your system and amplifier auditions. I envy your idea of building a dedicated room. My advice there is just not to make it an isolated cave but rather a welcoming space for others to enjoy your system with your. Ultimately, that is more satisfying. I had two pairs of Magico speakers and continue to read about your system with interest. There is a lot to address in your post, but I will try to get to the heart of the matter, as I see it.

I am not saying that everyone, or even anyone has to remove name brand power cords and room treatments to achieve natural sound. I am saying that doing those things made my Sublime Sound (Magico Q3/Pass) system sound more natural. You can read about my two years of experimenting with set up in my thread about that system. Speaker orientation also had a profound effect. Removing audiophile acoustic treatments does not mean that my living room suddenly became untreated. The furniture, rug, blinds, all act as room treatment and effect the sound. Boston Symphony Hall and the Vienna Opera House do not have acoustic panels hanging all over them like some other more modern halls. Acoustic treatments alter the sound. I think people should experiment and decide what works best for their rooms and their tastes.

The power cords and steel plates also have very specific effects on the sound. They require experimentation too. The idea behind natural sound is that there exists the specific target of live acoustic sound and it is the reference against which all decisions about a system and its set up are based. That live sound is natural, and anything one does regarding his system either gets him closer or further from that target.

My Micro Seiki turntable sounds natural. The American Sound table sounds more natural. They have a similar flavor. The Thorens Reference turntable that I heard at David's house, has a different flavor, but it still sounds natural. This has to do with degree of resolution and how it is presented. Boston and Vienna sound different, as do other venues. People may prefer one to the others. We hear live instruments in these places, and we instantly know they are live. It is because they sound natural. If something does not sound natural, something is wrong.

True venue sound does not depend on using audiophile acoustic treatments, fancy power cords, or isolation products. It depends on gear choice and system set up. Good electricity delivery helps as a foundation to good sound. There are different degrees and levels of success, but if it resembles the real thing, and is convincing and believable, and ultimately creates the experience of listening to live music, it is natural sound. For more detail about this, you could read the set up experiments described in the last eighteen months of so of my Sublime Sound thread to the beginning of this Natural Sound thread.

Thanks for clarifying. That helps a lot. You are using more natural acoustic treatments like carpet and like my trees behind the Magicos which help with diffusion, etc. Since we are presently in our Great Room we even experimented with turning our blinds different ways. I think I get it now.

If we build a new room it will have three matching chairs. It will be built to share. But first the final amp demo for this stage of the game. It’s fun.

Thanks again.