Natural Sound

Volume level between changes in a given system is a basic one…and one of most abused. A simple app on a smart phone will let you know if you have a significant change there. Comparing between systems can only really be done if the recording is made by the same gear and (again) with levels controlled. Hear an IPhone makes sense because almost everyone has one.

But if you want to give people the clearest picture of your system’s overall quality and you want people to best hear relative changes in your system and they have to listen remotely, then recording with high quality gear makes a lot of sense.

Brad I agree with you that matching the volume would have been better. Perhaps even a mistake to post the videos without volume matched. I will likely never hear the end of it from you and microstrip and Al and the other vocal critics. However I tried to explain up thread that I made the first video a month or two ago and did not record the volume setting on my preamp that has no digital display. I did not count the clicks and make a note of it for every video I made in the last year.

I had no idea that I would have this other turntable in my system when I made that video. I could’ve made five different videos approximating the volume and then uploaded each one to YouTube and then chosen the one that most closely matched it and then share a link to that particular video. I was not willing to put in that amount of effort.

Regarding the two videos of Saint James infirmary which were made a few days apart, I should indeed have recorded the volume and simply moved the arm from one to the other with the same volume and made another recording. I did not think of doing that and it was a grave mistake. I don’t know what else to tell anyone. Perhaps I’ll do it in the future but frankly the constant challenge for everything I do on this thread makes me reconsider whether or not sharing anything is worth the trouble. There is a point at which I’d rather just listen to the music and not share everything. I have learned what I want to learn from these turntables.
 
It's just the nature of some to drill you death or until you give up and comply with them!

david

It is indeed their nature and it can be relentless. They couldn’t beat me into changing the name of the thread. I know my target and it is more natural sound. I am learning how to get there and will keep moving in that direction.
 
I just took the RoadRunner tachometer from my Micro Seiki and hooked it up to the American Sound. I have been experimenting with belt types and belt tension to learn the effect on the sound, particularly the quality of the leading edge transients and of the bass performance. I prefer the non stretch belt from my SX8000II to a more standard stretchy rubber. I may also try a string or thread.

For the American Sound, I had been confirming speed with my Sutherland Timeline strobe device. It seems to match closely the RoadRunner because the dash line does not drift. I prefer the convenience of the RoadRunner because it has a very simple digital display to three digits (33.333) after the decimal point. Most tables that have speed displays show one (33.3) or at most two (33.33) digits after the decimal. Either of those would show no variation with this American Sound. Here, the third digit changes slightly. As I suspected, the speed does not change when I drop the needle or remove the TimeLine device. Here is a short video showing the result:

 
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Brad I agree with you that matching the volume would have been better. Perhaps even a mistake to post the videos without volume matched. I will likely never hear the end of it from you and microstrip and Al and the other vocal critics. However I tried to explain up thread that I made the first video a month or two ago and did not record the volume setting on my preamp that has no digital display. I did not count the clicks and make a note of it for every video I made in the last year.

I had no idea that I would have this other turntable in my system when I made that video. I could’ve made five different videos approximating the volume and then uploaded each one to YouTube and then chosen the one that most closely matched it and then share a link to that particular video. I was not willing to put in that amount of effort.

Regarding the two videos of Saint James infirmary which were made a few days apart, I should indeed have recorded the volume and simply moved the arm from one to the other with the same volume and made another recording. I did not think of doing that and it was a grave mistake. I don’t know what else to tell anyone. Perhaps I’ll do it in the future but frankly the constant challenge for everything I do on this thread makes me reconsider whether or not sharing anything is worth the trouble. There is a point at which I’d rather just listen to the music and not share everything. I have learned what I want to learn from these turntables.
Actually Peter, I am not a vocal critic of videos per se... I am one of the ones that think they bring some value and that you can hear quite a bit in them. However, when doing compares it is necessary to control levels at the very least...this goes for live as well! A quick spot check is all that would be necessary...use an Iphone if you must but then don't necessarily expect your true level of natural sound to come through unscathed. Relative differences will still be clear though...

There are no grave mistakes here...its all in good fun in a luxury hobby. The AS is an unobtainium TT anyway.
 
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Perhaps I’ll do it in the future but frankly the constant challenge for everything I do on this thread makes me reconsider whether or not sharing anything is worth the trouble. There is a point at which I’d rather just listen to the music and not share everything. I have learned what I want to learn from these turntables.

Don't stop sharing. I and others appreciate the work you've gone through to make the videos and write the text - these are genuine positive contributions to WBF.

So the volumes were not matched - it is not a big deal. The idea that one table would cause the volume to be louder is kinda silly, imo. What is the practical consequence that this may 'confuse' someone? Nada. None of that changes assessment of the sound - at least it didn't for me. I say enjoy that you get to hear an AS1000 and Micro-Seiki via a video playing the same music on the same system -- those opportunities aren't falling out of trees. Forget the ankle biting.

There are no grave mistakes here...its all in good fun in a luxury hobby. The AS is an unobtainium TT anyway.

This I agree ...
 
Don't stop sharing. I and others appreciate the work you've gone through to make the videos and write the text - these are genuine positive contributions to WBF.

So the volumes were not matched - it is not a big deal. The idea that one table would cause the volume to be louder is kinda silly, imo. What is the practical consequence that this may 'confuse' someone? Nada. None of that changes assessment of the sound - at least it didn't for me. I say enjoy that you get to hear an AS1000 and Micro-Seiki via a video playing the same music on the same system -- those opportunities aren't falling out of trees. Forget the ankle biting.



This I agree ...

Here hare here!
 
Don't stop sharing. I and others appreciate the work you've gone through to make the videos and write the text - these are genuine positive contributions to WBF.

So the volumes were not matched - it is not a big deal. The idea that one table would cause the volume to be louder is kinda silly, imo. What is the practical consequence that this may 'confuse' someone? Nada. None of that changes assessment of the sound - at least it didn't for me. I say enjoy that you get to hear an AS1000 and Micro-Seiki via a video playing the same music on the same system -- those opportunities aren't falling out of trees. Forget the ankle biting.



This I agree ...
Hi Tim,
Sorry but difference of volume levels has been proven to impact sound perception. The one I commented on as having different levels was also the one with different cartridges mounted and this could be the source of both loudness and spectral differences...or just loudness.
 
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Hi Tim,
Sorry but difference of volume levels has been proven to impact sound perception. The one I commented on as having different levels was also the one with different cartridges mounted and this could be the source of both loudness and spectral differences...or just loudness.

Agree. Volumes not matching *is* a big deal, contrary to what Tim says.

I have heard too many instances where even slight differences in volume impact ot even invalidate component comparisons.
 
Agree. Volumes not matching *is* a big deal, contrary to what Tim says.

I have heard too many instances where even slight differences in volume impact ot even invalidate component comparisons.

Al, for me it kind of depends on the nature of what I’m trying to discover. If I am trying to compare two cartridges or two pre amplifiers or two cables in my own system for a purchase decision, I’m going to do everything very carefully so that I have confidence that the condions are conducive to a proper evaluation.

I am not presenting these videos to anyone so they can make a purchase decision for themselves. I don’t have the time or the interest to make the effort to do such a thing. It is simply a casual snapshot to share information. When it comes to a system video, I can pretty quickly tell from any thing that anyone posts certain things about the sound. If I hear something promising, I’m grateful for the opportunity for the sharing and then I can pursue a component in a more serious manner on my own.

For a serious decision, I try very hard to listen to the component in person and don’t rely on the video. I have never held these videos out there as a substitute for listening to the real thing live. They simply supplement or compliment the written description. Anything more seems to be a presumption on the part of the people who continually denigrate the use and quality of the videos. If anything I post in one of my videos catches your interest, you should simply drive 10 minutes over to my house and listen to the thing in person if you want to learn more than what you can from the videos.

In the future when I try to make a specific point and share it with others about something that is going on in my system that I find interesting and think that others might find interesting, I’ve already stated that I will try to do a better job of volume matching for those who are demanding it.

I agree with Tim, an aweful lot can be learned from these videos if you know what to listen for. Differences in volume don’t make a big difference to me when I listen to videos from all over the world. I am simply grateful that I’m able to see videos from around the world of systems that I would never ever be able to hear in real life. Again it’s not like evaluating a component in one’s own system in a direct comparison. Videos should not be held to that standard in my opinion.
 
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Al, for me it kind of depends on the nature of what I’m trying to discover. If I am trying to compare two cartridges or two pre amplifiers or two cables in my own system for a purchase decision, I’m going to do everything very carefully so that I have confidence that the condions are conducive for a proper evaluation.

I am not presenting these videos to anyone so they can make a purchase decision for themselves. I don’t have the time or the interest to make the effort to do such a thing. It is simply a casual snapshot to share information. When it comes to a system video, I can pretty quickly tell from any thing that anyone posts certain things about the sound. If I hear something promising, I’m grateful for the opportunity for the sharing and then I can pursue a component in a more serious manner on my own.

For a serious decision, I try very hard to listen to the component in person and don’t rely on the video. I have never held these videos out there as a substitute for listening to the real thing live. They simply supplement or compliment the written description. Anything more seems to be a presumption on the part of the people who continually denigrate the use and quality of the videos. If anything I post in one of my videos catches your interest, you should simply drive 10 minutes over to my house and listen to the thing in person if you want to learn more than what you can from the videos.

In the future when I try to make a specific point and share it with others about something that is going on in my system that I find interesting and think that others might find interesting, I’ve already stated that I will try to do a better job of volume matching for those who are demanding it.

I agree with Tim, an aweful lot can be learned from these videos if you know what to listen for. Differences in volume don’t make a big difference to me when I listen to videos from all over the world. I am simply grateful that I’m able to see videos from around the world of systems that I would never ever be able to hear in real life. Again it’s not like evaluating a component in one’s own system in a direct comparison. Videos should not be held to that standard in my opinion.
Peter, you know it when you hear it, as soon as you hear it. You don't need sound level monitors, or frequency analysers or any other piece of equipment to know which of two components sounds more "natural". Forget the trolls, as far as I can tell they have provided nothing useful to this thread.
 
Bobvin said:
Forgive me Peter, I am posting in your thread about natural sound and I have not heard your’s or ddk’s systems, so your ‘natural’ and my own understanding may be different (or, there is the possibility I’d hear yours and go “oh, yeah - that!”)

I had a visitor come to hear Diesis “Roma” recently. After he left I spent a good while just listening and enjoying. So I sent a little note to Giuseppe @ Diesis:

Giuseppe’s response I thought worth sharing:

I understand French thinking, I have a family part living in Paris.
In Italy it has the same meaning,
saying : There is something that strikes us most without understanding what…
But the receptors in our brain have infallible qualities to make us capture an emotion even if hidden.
In the notes of the guarantee certificate we wrote these words:
(You will never stop falling in love with them) this is what happens to us even today, each interface will produce a different result but always with the Character we have impressed, Both with small tube amps and with large Solid State Amplifire the concreteness and focusing of the stage will always be granitic.
You have turned on a fuse inside our passion, we also need these feedback to continue our passion.
Thanks again, Bob


(Keep in mind Giuseppe speaks no english, so our correspondence is typically filtered through Google Translate.)

So we both (myself and Giuseppe) recognize this something special and unique, but we’re not using your term. Konstantinos from Pilium did say he designs with a goal of creating a ‘natural’ sounding amp. Tim and Tang had not previously used the term (much?) in their postings (that I have read).

Is it possible this ‘natural‘ sound is floating around out there in a good many instances? When you hear a another system now, does your ability to enjoy the music suffer if at first your ‘natural sound’ filter is unchecked?

Bob, no need to be forgiven. I love your post. Guiseppe understands, so do the French. David says (paraphrasing), "Hear that? That is the magic. There is something there. I don't know exactly what it is, but it is there in this and not in that. THAT is the difference." He puts his fingers together, shrugs a bit in consternation, and smiles because he recognized it without completely understanding it. I suspect it is THAT that motivates him in his turntable designs, and in the speakers he is building for Tang. I know it is what he listens for during cartridge set ups. Broader, It is not easily understood, but some stuff simply has it, regardless of the subject. It is that special "thing". This is the genius of those designers, musicians, artists, builders, the best creators. This is what makes something the "best" for someone else. It is the magic one glimpses.

If you do a search on WBF, you will find reference to the term "natural" going back years. Tim and Tang used it. Reviewers used it. There are old threads about it, long before this thread. David uses it in his Beyond Turntable threads and in the sub forum thread introducing himself where he describes his goals. Those are great reads.

Since living with this system now for over a year, my thoughts on the sound (listening experience) of what I hear elsewhere has certainly changed. Hearing this American Sound turntable these past weeks has only increased this. This is an interesting and somewhat complex subject, and I don't want to get into it now, but my system sound reference has moved. I understand more than I did before about the hobby and system sound, and that affects everything I hear. Certainly others can say something similar when asked the same question referencing their own systems. Knowledge comes with deeper experiences, and thinking is affected.
 
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Hi Tim,
Sorry but difference of volume levels has been proven to impact sound perception. The one I commented on as having different levels was also the one with different cartridges mounted and this could be the source of both loudness and spectral differences...or just loudness.

Hi Brad,
No need to be sorry. I do not deny that as a general statement that volume levels may be a factor in general impressions. But in the comparison between the two tables at Peter's they were not a factor for me in terms of hearing how the tables sounded differently. It seemed evident that gain was not matched, or at least that was my thought -- I did not think much about it.

Isn't this where Tao comes in with a quip about there never being a horse too dead to beat? I mean no disrespect when I say this topic has been going on for what -- three or four pages? I'm confident that Peter got the message about level setting some time ago -- it's just one video pair -- I hope we can be done with the topic.
 
(...) I do not deny that as a general statement that volume levels may be a factor in general impressions. But in the comparison between the two tables at Peter's they were not a factor for me in terms of hearing how the tables sounded differently. It seemed evident that gain was not matched, or at least that was my thought -- I did not think much about it.

The fact that it is not relevant for your doesn't change anything - as almost all the people do not have a way to equalize levels they will not get the proper idea of the differences. And you are wanting to ignore the fact that there is a different equalization in each video - due to probably to different positions of the iPhone or the different degrees of compression applied in each recording.

Isn't this where Tao comes in with a quip about there never being a horse too dead to beat? I mean no disrespect when I say this topic has been going on for what -- three or four pages? I'm confident that Peter got the message about level setting some time ago -- it's just one video pair -- I hope we can be done with the topic.

I had hope that people wanting to use the iPhones would be interested in the subject and would look for a better way of communicating sonic experiences. A recording is a digital measurement and has technical aspects that can't be ignored. It is a pity that those condemning measurements so easily do not realize this simple fact.
 
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Hi Brad,
No need to be sorry. I do not deny that as a general statement that volume levels may be a factor in general impressions. But in the comparison between the two tables at Peter's they were not a factor for me in terms of hearing how the tables sounded differently. It seemed evident that gain was not matched, or at least that was my thought -- I did not think much about it.

Isn't this where Tao comes in with a quip about there never being a horse too dead to beat? I mean no disrespect when I say this topic has been going on for what -- three or four pages? I'm confident that Peter got the message about level setting some time ago -- it's just one video pair -- I hope we can be done with the topic.
Does this mean you never control levels with gear you review?

FWIW, I’ve seen you flogging some less than animate farm animals recently, Tim…:rolleyes:
 

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