Natural Sound

Is the Greater Boston Area Bromance about to crumble? :D
Or is it "only" dividing into two subgroups?

Great question! I think I am on probation. I received my first warning sometime around 2019 because of my politics. I got a second warning in 2020 because of the virus. I think I was suspended in 2021 when I went from sublime sound to natural sound. I might now be expelled because of my stance on videos.

It is all in good fun and I am hoping I will be invited to a meeting after sailing season.
 
David, stick to analog. :D
This snarky remark is only a diversion from facts so not to address them! After all you were discussing body and resolution of two turntables that you have never heard in your life based on a couple of Peter's videos :D !

david
 
Back to what I am hearing in my room comparing these two turntables.

I have very few examples of both audiophile reissues on heavy vinyl and copies of earlier pressings of the same titles. My friend MadFloyd was kind enough to lend me or give me a re-issue of Sonny Rollins Way Out West on Contemporary, CR S7530. It is an earlier pressing on thinner vinyl. Ian does not like this pressing and describes them as somewhat “hot“ sounding. I’ve been comparing this recording with my reference re-issue on Analog Productions, APJ 008.

The original American Sound AS 1000 turntable more clearly illustrates the differences between these two recordings than does the Micro Seiki SX 8000 II.

I am not going to post videos of the two recordings, but I will try to describe what I am hearing.

The first difference is that the older pressing sounds louder. This was not very obvious to me before. I turneded my volume controls down two clicks for a perceived similarity in loudness. I then been pulled out my digital sound level meter and compared the relative loudness of each pressing using the first track. The older pressing started at 65 dB and had a peak of 85. The newer pressing started to 61 and peaked at 84. The newer pressing seems to have a slightly greater dynamic range, at least on that first track. My initial impression that the older pressing seems louder is confirmed by the measurements at the beginning of the track.

That’s kind of interesting, but I generally adjust the volume level until I think it sounds about right for how I want to listen to a particular recording. Much more interesting to me is the quality of the sound I am hearing. The new pressing sounds like there is more contrast between the instruments created in part because the background seems quieter and the instruments are standing in bolder relief. But there’s also a spotlighting of the instruments that draws my attention to each one. It separates them. I also hear a slight lack of life in the presentation. It is a display rather than a performance. Images are also just a tad flatter sounding. Each instrument seems slightly enhanced.

I do not hear the “hot” balance on the older pressing. What I do here is slightly more energy and life in the presentation. The instruments do not play in as much contrast to each other but they are jamming more convincingly. There is slightly more balance. There is less contrast and void between images. There is more sound filling the space around them. The bass is less pronounced drawing less attention to itself. It is more like I think of a bass being played right next to a drum set. The saxophone is the star during the solo with the rhythm section falling back. It then rejoins the others to become part of the mix, when all the instruments are improvising.

It is pretty interesting. I can see how people would prefer one or the other presentation. I like them both but slightly prefer the older pressing, basically because it sounds more like I am in the presence of the musicians.

The cool thing for me, as I sit here listening to these differences, is the realization that a turntable like the original American Sound helps me to better understand both the minutia of a particular recording and at the same time allows me to choose a particular presentation that sounds more natural to me in my living room. This turntable gives me greater insight into both the recording and the music. I heard this difference between pressings in David’s room with his AS 2000. Having the AS 1000 here is giving me similar insight which the Micro does to a slightly lesser extent. It is a real treat.

This analysis is great and I’m learning something, but I mostly enjoy just putting on the next record and listening to it. Thank you Ian for allowing me to hear this LP in my system.

1658080571514.jpeg
 
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I researched this subject extensively in connection with the equipment I purchased to record systems in stereo. I got the Earthworks QTC40 Matched Pair. This is my microphone recommendation for your purpose.

I did not research dedicated ADC digital audio recorders but I do not think a basic one is very expensive.
That should work into the TASCAM portable recorder I have, which also has quite good built in mics.
 
Yes, considerable difference between your recording and listening at David's, I agree. I did not mean to diminish the difference. Two completely different sets of equipment. Both had that sense of presence I tried to describe though not on the same level. An example of degrees of natural.

Tim, I am listening to that Ella Fitzgerald Joe Pass recording right now. I don’t quite have the same sense of Ella being in the room that we had at David’s with the AS 2000 and Neumann, but close with some differences. It is a wonderful recording.

I’m going to make some more videos, perhaps even the Mahler’s 8th. Send me a PM if you have specific requests and I will send you a link via email.
 
Heh I did think of dropping in a live show. It will be fun if someone says this sounds artificial. It will be doubly fun when they watch out for a bluff, double bluff, instead of just listening.

Regarding the above debate, just enjoy posting your videos with the mobile. Videos in some ways are a thankless process. There will always be those who say a system in videos is sh*t, and frankly dealers or those sensitive shouldn't. On the other hand, there are some dealer video channels like Ultimate Audio who even they post bad sound and bad music get circulated because of the components involved (wadax, gryphon, etc). People do not care for sonic evaluation on videos, they will buy it anyway.

There are a handful of us who will enjoy these videos, and hopefully some will join in. I do think that overall Tang's videos and then mine and other that followed were overall positive in exposing more people to horns.

I can't stand professionally done videos like the ones by Moiz Audio. They do not let you understand the equipment at all. They sound great if your objective is to listen to youtube, but then why would you want to listen to audio equipment videos, just play live music videos or the ones where LP was recorded directly from the phono using Tascam. Those have awesome sound.
So you want deliberately poorer sound quality videos because they what? Help you make better compares or is there some other pretzel logic here? If you had Moiz quality where things were changed within that system you would have better relative understanding of the change and better absolute understanding of the impact on realism.
 
So all flac convertors sound the same. Compression softwares all use the same algorithm. A2D convertors are all the same. No difference in routers and networks, wired or wifi during upload and download? How about internet speeds? Servers? Time of day or month? What RefErEnce playback chain do you propose that guarantees the same results for everyone?

Musicians use mics as tools to enhance not evaluate. Apparently they have different qualities and character! This will always be a flawed process no matter what the phones are only a tool but more people have access to the same.

david
You're right but it applies to an Iphone doubly or triply so!! Think of what you are saying!!!
 
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This snarky remark is only a diversion from facts so not to address them! After all you were discussing body and resolution of two turntables that you have never heard in your life based on a couple of Peter's videos :D !

david
I didn't...I only noted they sounded like they were not at the same SPL, which as you know will bias perception.
 
You're right but it applies to an Iphone doubly or triply so!! Think of what you are saying!!!
I know exactly what I’m saying, that it’s a flawed process with many variables no matter what you use!

We don’t all use the videos in the same way. For me the videos are simply an analysis tool not a musical experience, you already know my opinion of computer audio under any condition:)! These videos can have enough of the information I need to make some judgments, visual cues are just as important as sonic ones specially when working on setup or hearing something off. Just a tool like an oscilloscope’s one.

david
 
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I know exactly what I’m saying, that it’s a flawed process with many variables no matter what you use!

We don’t all use the videos in the same way. For me the videos are simply an analysis tool not a musical experience, you already know my opinion of computer audio under any condition:)! These videos can have enough of the information I need to make some judgments, visual cues are just as important as sonic ones specially when working on setup or hearing something off. Just a tool like an oscilloscope’s one.

david

OK, you are addressing private analysis of very specific aspects, associated to visual analysis or the experiment conditions - as far as I see it is not the aim of Peter videos or what is being discussed.
 
Let's try a blind visual test. These are different systems, so it isn't exactly an A/B

If it doesn't play directly from your browser, download it and play with either the default media player or download VLC which is free and plays everything.

This is Bruch's Scottish Fantasia first movement performed by Oistrakh. Those who know the movement, can start listening. Those who don't, it is a violin concerto so listen for the violin and for the orchestra. Don't just make your mind up on the first few seconds of the violin, listen through for the rise and fall.

It is not so much about which is better or not, but if there is a massive difference you think between the three in quality or price. The fact that they sound different is obvious

All 3 have different timbres, but they also have differing levels of energy


1. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1JDpv-3wcCI6Wk4805ZlvrkpoifOhLhg9/view?usp=sharing

2. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1OnVuJXNtwKgaz44-LJqJY02M0O5DvNGK/view?usp=sharing

3. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1caPiauqrqBalpvFqCG7ZnN9TZi-sVaQR/view?usp=sharing
 
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Looks like they dug up the old video horse for another flogging:oops:! At the end of the day theses simple videos are valuable assessment tools when one knows what they’re hearing and what to listen for, no different from hearing the system in person; not everyone gets it!

So bypass the room and half the playback chain, digitize the analog signal with a set of proprietary algorithms then convert it to some file format with proprietary converters, upload that file to the cloud via unknown algorithms through several IPs, repeat the conversion processes again a few more times for download to computers with unknown storage mediums through random routers and played back with mystery players via hardware of unknown quality, including the DACs, tubed or ss. What if people play it back on their phones? This makes so much more sense now:)!

david
Think you’re right here David. It’s maybe a bit of an audio Groundhog Day thing. We audiophiles tend to overthink, over complicate and over compensate. Perhaps we take something that has some measure of rightness in it already in that it does the job and is relatively simple and essentially good for its purpose and works. Then in trying to make it technically more perfect we extend it and complicate it and perhaps in doing so we just engineer the virtues out by pushing a thing past it’s limits and ultimately make it in the big picture less good… a possible analogy for where we have gone with complex crossovers, difficult loads and systems with lots of additional processes. The whole less can be more thing has value in it here.
 
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OK, you are addressing private analysis of very specific aspects, associated to visual analysis or the experiment conditions - as far as I see it is not the aim of Peter videos or what is being discussed.
I'm addressing what some are going on about, that videos are crap and pointless. I can get plenty of information from a youtube video and have had enough conversations with people here about their systems to prove my point. Just because one person can't dissect a video doesn't mean that nobody can, we have different abilities and levels of experience to draw upon.

You should ask Peter, Tang, Ked or others who post videos regularly what their intent was for each video. IMO in his recent posts Peter wanted to show the differences between two turntables, did he not accomplish that with his videos? What is it that you're looking for from such videos? Is there a better alternative?

david
 
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I know exactly what I’m saying, that it’s a flawed process with many variables no matter what you use!

We don’t all use the videos in the same way. For me the videos are simply an analysis tool not a musical experience, you already know my opinion of computer audio under any condition:)! These videos can have enough of the information I need to make some judgments, visual cues are just as important as sonic ones specially when working on setup or hearing something off. Just a tool like an oscilloscope’s one.

david
Sure, I understand what you mean but then how can you argue against a higher resolution tool? Who doesn't want an analytical instrument that can measure with more precision, accuracy and sensitivity? I spent a good part of my career design analytical instruments to do better science to understand things on levels we couldn't before. So, it is baffling to me when you try to argue that using higher resolution recording gear would not bring more benefit in the analysis of recordings where changes have been made to a system. Your argument doesn't hold up to even mild scrutiny.
 
I'm addressing what some are going on about, that videos are crap and pointless. I can get plenty of information from a youtube video and have had enough conversations with people here about their systems to prove my point. Just because one person can't dissect a video doesn't mean that nobody can, we have different abilities and levels of experience to draw upon.

You should ask Peter, Tang, Ked or others who post videos regularly what their intent was for each video. IMO in his recent posts Peter wanted to show the differences between two turntables, did he not accomplish that with his videos? What is it that you're looking for from such videos? Is there a better alternative?

david
They are not crap but they are uncontrolled and when trying to split hairs (atoms?) no controls can lead to false conclusions.
 
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Great question! I think I am on probation. I received my first warning sometime around 2019 because of my politics. I got a second warning in 2020 because of the virus. I think I was suspended in 2021 when I went from sublime sound to natural sound. I might now be expelled because of my stance on videos.

It is all in good fun and I am hoping I will be invited to a meeting after sailing season.
If you were a non-US citizen you would have been deported by now. :D
 
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You should ask Peter, Tang, Ked or others who post videos regularly what their intent was for each video. IMO in his recent posts Peter wanted to show the differences between two turntables, did he not accomplish that with his videos?

Since you ask, not IMHO. The comparative videos show different levels and different spectral content . I hope that the AS1000 (or the SX8000) do no behave like frequency equalizers. BTW, as mobile phones can be used with software as sound meters, that risk to be used for studies, their problems and poor quality is well researched. IMHO good for communications, speech and entertainment, little else.

What is it that you're looking for from such videos? Is there a better alternative?

david

Yes, there is. Peter could do as WBF people have done in the past , or even Michael Fremer in Analog Planet - digitally record the output of the preamplfier. At less we would have information that is not miserably compressed and with a limited bandwidth.

Some people to show their systems playing musical content . I find it great, but mostly for the dynamic visuals, not for the sound track. As always YMMV.
 
Since you ask, not IMHO. The comparative videos show different levels and different spectral content . I hope that the AS1000 (or the SX8000) do no behave like frequency equalizers. BTW, as mobile phones can be used with software as sound meters, that risk to be used for studies, their problems and poor quality is well researched. IMHO good for communications, speech and entertainment, little else.



Yes, there is. Peter could do as WBF people have done in the past , or even Michael Fremer in Analog Planet - digitally record the output of the preamplfier. At less we would have information that is not miserably compressed and with a limited bandwidth.

Some people to show their systems playing musical content . I find it great, but mostly for the dynamic visuals, not for the sound track. As always YMMV.
Actually the recordings with an IPhone are clearly good enough to easily tell relative differences between setups but when levels are different that can misconstrued as the louder is better. A different Spectral content is interesting but realize that he had a different cartridge on each table so one might expect there to be some differences.
 
Actually the recordings with an IPhone are clearly good enough to easily tell relative differences between setups but when levels are different that can misconstrued as the louder is better. A different Spectral content is interesting but realize that he had a different cartridge on each table so one might expect there to be some differences.

Hi Brad,

I wouldn’t waste any more of your time attempting to explain this stuff to certain members. Pointless.
 

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