Natural Sound

[tima]

Before this discussion strays any further from the IP's intention, I would like to weigh in.

I've had the unusual good fortune to audition, listen to and learn from Peter's methodical approach through virtually all iterations of his system.

Having experienced the introduction of the Lamm LP1 into Peter's system has been revelatory.

While I have essentially the same electronics in my own listening room, my front end is a Micro Seiki 8000-II / SME 3012-R / Air Tight Supreme-- nothing to apologize for, but by no measure the AS2000 ( yes, I have heard them compared directly, in this same system ), and my speakers are neither as full range nor as efficient as Peter's Vitavox CN-191 corner horns. Thus when I listen at home, I likely hear slightly greater distortion at commensurate volume levels, and music is presented with noticeably less palpable authority, less 'plausible undeniability'.

With that as a baseline, I should add that I have been privileged to experience more than 40 hours' listening on DDK's system, which means I have pre-existing experience with the Lamm LP1, in tandem with the most remarkable AS2000 turntable, as at Peter's.

Peter's system with the LP 2.1 Deluxe phono preamp still sounded like an audio system, with moments of transcendent listening. In fact, one such moment in the LP 2.1 iteration of the system was so vivid, so beautiful and so compelling that it brought me to pick up my guitar again, after a 30 year hiatus. I experienced a moment of synesthesia that has otherwise only happened during meditation, performing or creating art.

With the LP1 in place --just as Peter states-- differences are immediately obvious. I won't try to characterize them, save to say that the boundaries of the room and the limits of the system have been sloughed like a snake skin shed. What came away was slightly translucent, and not unpleasant, but what remains now I find more consistently compelling than before, and even more fluid, repeatedly at that same sensually engaging level that a previous 'musical moment' caused me to take up my instrument again.

Peter said among his first observations about the LP1 that there was "more". I must add that there Was more, but that it was also better, and better by far.

I have for some time said that I don't know what I've been missing ( in audio, in an engine, in live musical experience ) until I hear it.

I heard it when Peter introduced the LP1 into his system. And I practiced guitar again this morning --even though I'm sick-- inspired again to live in and with music as much as I can discipline myself to do.

...And for those who don't know me, ANYthing that can press me into Any form of self-discipline is redoubtable, as a force of nature.

Great post, well written, David -- thanks. Now there are at least five of us with the same or similar electronics and different transducers. We don't encounter the LP1 very often, much less commentary. It's cool you have first hand experience of the LP2.1 --> LP1 transition.

 

[the sound of Tao]

Thank you Graham. The proportions were dictated by the dimensions of the supples (14” X 19”) and 6” clearance for circulation and the narrow space in which I will need to roll this 200+ lbs loaded rack. It is 14W X 22”D X 16.5”H.

Sounds like you’ve gone for a classic form follows function Peter… always a great move!

 

[PeterA]

Before this discussion strays any further from the IP's intention, I would like to weigh in.

I've had the unusual good fortune to audition, listen to and learn from Peter's methodical approach through virtually all iterations of his system.

Having experienced the introduction of the Lamm LP1 into Peter's system has been revelatory.

While I have essentially the same electronics in my own listening room, my front end is a Micro Seiki 8000-II / SME 3012-R / Air Tight Supreme-- nothing to apologize for, but by no measure the AS2000 ( yes, I have heard them compared directly, in this same system ), and my speakers are neither as full range nor as efficient as Peter's Vitavox CN-191 corner horns. Thus when I listen at home, I likely hear slightly greater distortion at commensurate volume levels, and music is presented with noticeably less palpable authority, less 'plausible undeniability'.

With that as a baseline, I should add that I have been privileged to experience more than 40 hours' listening on DDK's system, which means I have pre-existing experience with the Lamm LP1, in tandem with the most remarkable AS2000 turntable, as at Peter's.

Peter's system with the LP 2.1 Deluxe phono preamp still sounded like an audio system, with moments of transcendent listening. In fact, one such moment in the LP 2.1 iteration of the system was so vivid, so beautiful and so compelling that it brought me to pick up my guitar again, after a 30 year hiatus. I experienced a moment of synesthesia that has otherwise only happened during meditation, performing or creating art.

With the LP1 in place --just as Peter states-- differences are immediately obvious. I won't try to characterize them, save to say that the boundaries of the room and the limits of the system have been sloughed like a snake skin shed. What came away was slightly translucent, and not unpleasant, but what remains now I find more consistently compelling than before, and even more fluid, repeatedly at that same sensually engaging level that a previous 'musical moment' caused me to take up my instrument again.

Peter said among his first observations about the LP1 that there was "more". I must add that there Was more, but that it was also better, and better by far.

I have for some time said that I don't know what I've been missing ( in audio, in an engine, in live musical experience ) until I hear it.

I heard it when Peter introduced the LP1 into his system. And I practiced guitar again this morning --even though I'm sick-- inspired again to live in and with music as much as I can discipline myself to do.

...And for those who don't know me, ANYthing that can press me into Any form of self-discipline is redoubtable, as a force of nature.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts here, David. You are an astute listener with a unique writing style. When a system makes you think about the music and then pick up an instrument, it is doing something right. I look forward to visiting you next to hear your system progress. It is what the hobby is all about.

 

[microstrip]

"Soft-start" box is literally what VTL called it. Why are you arguing about something so trivial?

Because you using it in a confusing way. Your were mixing rush current with the soft start technique used in many electronic equipment - sorry to argue so often you, but our readers deserve clear and correct explanations of technical aspects related to equipment performance.

BTW, I have now my old VTL pod mod on my desk. Feel free to ask any question on it.

 

[microstrip]

What methodologically and analytically valid blind testing did you implement to quantify and verify sonic improvements among a 12 hour warm-up versus an 18 hour warm-up versus a 24 hour warm-up?

Ron, this was sighted subjective opinion - why do you insist on mixing apples with oranges?

 

[microstrip]

Francisco often holds members' feet to the fire of precision, so I assumed, perhaps incorrectly, that there was academic-quality data backing up his assertion.

 

[PeterA]

Ron and Fransisco, can I respectfully ask that you take the discussion elsewhere far away from my system thread. Thank you very much.

 

[Atmasphere]

Ralph,

This simple solution is only possible if we find acceptable to include the current inrush limiter is series with the mains and transformer primary. Many designers - and audiophiles - consider it inadmissible.

IME if you design and build your power supplies properly you will never know such a device is being used (to insure they continue to operate reliably years on) as they will be inaudible. At this point the reviews and awards in the high end press we've obtained seem to support this 'notion'

At this point I've seen enough hack stuff that I've no doubt that what you say is true- think of how poor the design must be to be susceptable to something like this! When the CIL is heated up, even a really good power cord usually has a larger voltage drop!

We run several power transformers in any of our amplifiers, so that anything that might perturb the output section power supply can't mess with the driver/voltage amplifier section of the amp. This has the additional benefit of reducing IMD as well as any issues associated with a CIL.

 

[PeterA]

Here is a recent video of Sonny Rollins, Way Out West, on my system with the Ortofon cartridge and the new LP1 phono stage. It makes for an interesting comparison to the one I did eight months ago with the latest vdH Colibri cartridge and my LP2.1 phonostage. Multiple variables, but both represent fairly well the sound of the system in the room at the listening seat at the time the videos were made.

The section that I really like in the first video is the bass and drum duet that starts around 3:10. The instruments have more weight/body and presence than in the second video, IMO. This gives it a more natural sound and sense of realism. The differences come through on the standard iPhone 11 with built in mic. The added mass in that section is a direct result of what the Ortofon and LP1 bring to the presentation.

 

[tima]

The instruments have more weight/body and presence than in the second video, IMO.

I sense this also of Rollin's sax. The cartridges are different yes. From my experience the two videos definitely reflect the system differences between the LP2.1 and LP1.

 

[PeterA]

I have just finished and installed my new rack for the two extra Lamm power supplies that do not fit on the main rack. It is solid mahogany wood, stained and oiled. The rack is on four rollers so that I can move it into the narrow space. The two steel plates are A36 standard steel, 14" X 19" X 1", not polished like my other stainless plates, so they are coated with a clear lacquer coat, buffed, and oiled to prevent rust. The rack weighs just over 200 lbs loaded. The basic design is similar to my main rack, except for the top shelf of the main rack which has isolation built in for the turntable.

Here are some photos:

 

[timztunz]

Very nice Peter!

 

[RCanelas]

What do you place between the plates and the rack?

 

[PeterA]

What do you place between the plates and the rack?

Large (3”) rubber O-rings. The size, number, and location are all determined by the degree of resonance in the plate, so it varies by how thick the plate is and how big it is. It also matters how close they are to the stock rubber footers on the gear.

I don’t want too much ringing, nor do I want it completely dead. I did quite a few experiments with this in my old system and how it all affects the sound. I got a lot of advice from DDK. He encouraged me to experiment and then listen to the results and keep adjusting until I am satisfied. Then when he came to fine-tune my system last October, he made some slight adjustments.

 

[Lagonda]

I have just finished and installed my new rack for the two extra Lamm power supplies that do not fit on the main rack. It is solid mahogany wood, stained and oiled. The rack is on four rollers so that I can move it into the narrow space. The two steel plates are A36 standard steel, 14" X 19" X 1", not polished like my other stainless plates, so they are coated with a clear lacquer coat, buffed, and oiled to prevent rust. The rack weighs just over 200 lbs loaded. The basic design is similar to my main rack, except for the top shelf of the main rack which has isolation built in for the turntable.

Here are some photos:

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Nice job Peter !

 

[PeterA]

Thank you. It is very gratifying to have a blank piece of paper and with a given set of conditions, design something that addresses the issues. I learned a lot about problem-solving when I was studying architecture.

Designing a rack seems fairly straightforward, but it can be challenging. Primarily, it must function as a support for the equipment. The challenging part is that it should “do no harm“ to the sound. In this case, aesthetics are an issue given the dual purpose of the room, but that is rather simple and fun to resolve. The harder part is to build something that sounds neutral.

One approach is to mass load the structure. Steel plates are a good solution. The problem is that they ring, so you have to come up with a way to dampen the ringing but not go too far. I have found that these steel plates on a strong wooden structure, if carefully tuned, sound much more natural than my old approach using air isolation.

 

[tima]

I have just finished and installed my new rack for the two extra Lamm power supplies that do not fit on the main rack. It is solid mahogany wood, stained and oiled. The rack is on four rollers so that I can move it into the narrow space. The two steel plates are A36 standard steel, 14" X 19" X 1", not polished like my other stainless plates, so they are coated with a clear lacquer coat, buffed, and oiled to prevent rust. The rack weighs just over 200 lbs loaded. The basic design is similar to my main rack, except for the top shelf of the main rack which has isolation built in for the turntable.

Here are some photos:

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Love that stack of 4 van den Hul cartridge boxes by the left speaker!

 

[Ron Resnick]

Congratulations, Peter! The new stand matches perfectly the original stand, and it looks great!

 

[Ron Resnick]

the degree of resonance in the plate . . .

I don’t want too much ringing, nor do I want it completely dead.

How do you determine the degree of resonance in the plate?

How do you determine how much the steel slab rings?

 

[PeterA]

How do you determine the degree of resonance in the plate?

How do you determine how much the steel slab rings?

I tap it and listen. Then I play music and listen. I keep adjusting until I am happy with the sound. After a while, I learned to correlate the amount of resonance in the plate with what sounds good from the system. I like having the ability to fine tune the sound of the rack to taste. It is subjective.