Natural Sound

[bonzo75]

Is it known where Tango obtained these now “Broken” Lamm electronics ?

i won’t say they are broken, tubes can go off and sockets have to be replaced. Again I have nothing against that, I just don’t see how it can be highlighted as a system to have the best videos. This is just misleading to many readers to make it look at this as a SETs horn poster child. It is not.

he says he is happy with it, but for me that is beside the point of the best video, or even good video discussion.

 

[PeterA]

sorry I never said he is not listening because of that.

i said he was trying to dial his subs in correctly and marked his videos accordingly.

apart from that he was not listening when the amps were not working, as he has posted himself in the YT comment highlighted by adyc.

my point is when someone is trying to dial in a component, and his videos do sound off how can one assess these are the best? It is easy to hear they are not. To say otherwise it’s just to cheerlead own product and not really report on listening, much like the analogy I gave of other owners who go to a hifi show and claim every room their component is in is sounding great

I like the current video that is up. I like some of the ones that are gone. I loved the two during development in Utah. I assure you it is not cheerleading. It is my opinion

The bass issues with his old speakers is also easy to hear. Bwoom bwoom on every recording. Do not forget, he changed for a reason. So now everyone who likes those is cheerleading set/horns?

I am sorry he deleted the videos because I enjoyed them.

 

[Argonaut]

i won’t say they are broken, tubes can go off and sockets have to be replaced. Again I have nothing against that, I just don’t see how it can be highlighted as a system to have the best videos. This is just misleading to many readers to make it look at this as a SETs horn poster child. It is not.

he says he is happy with it, but for me that is beside the point of the best video, or even good video discussion.

Merely quoting Tango ‘s terminology and an impression coming off of his recent YT post

 

[PeterA]

Sorry. I only say subwoofer integration and not amplifier integration. To be honest, I do not know what brand his subwoofers are. Subwoofer integration are not just about amplifier. It is more about placement, crossover point, slope and phase etc. And these parameters are definitely room dependent. I doubt he has experience of doing that alone. So Ked’s speculation is well justified in my opinion. One can easily got frustrated and lost in this subwoofer integration exercise.

I understand the distinction. Bonzo was very successful changing the subject from the ML2 ability to drive the subs which is one reason I bought a second pair to the speaker integration subject.

 

[KeithR]

Jeff, you are correct that natural sound was never presented as what is best. I presented it as a list of observations based on listening to four systems at David Karmeli's house in Utah and as a reference to live unamplified music. I never said it was the only way to achieve anything accept my own goals, and I never told anyone else to adopt my approach or buy the same gear.

I rejected my own past values and approach to the hobby and moved in a completely different direction. Note that this is my system thread where I ruminate about what I did and why. It is not a treatise on audio in the general forum by someone telling others what they should do. That was never my intent or interest. Besides, no one has that much influence over such a diverse group of hobbyists.

For the sake of argument, I will assume you are calling me a member of the tribe and David Karmeli the tribal leader. So when you say you "suggested to members of the tribe to try non-LAMM equipment the response is always the same:..." I have to disagree. Here is why: I was not a member of the tribe before I owned my Lamm gear. Having just become a tribe member by buying the Lamm gear, why would you then suggest to someone to forget the LL1 Reference, LP2.1 Deluxe, and pair of ML2s he just bought and try something different? Why would you think anyone would do that right after buying all this new stuff? Why would anyone take your suggestion seriously? I know I never responded the way you are now claiming, so you must be describing someone else. You did share with me your joy in trying a bunch of different inexpensive Chinese amps after selling your Lamm amps. And, come to think of it, why would you suggest to someone who is happy with his gear, to try something else anyway? Who does that? Someone cationed me about the AS2000 turntable too. I do not get that.

I asked DDK directly about less expensive tube gear he liked on this forum, and he said only used Lamm.

 

[bonzo75]

I like the current video that is up. I like some of the ones that are gone. I loved the two during development in Utah. I assure you it is not cheerleading. It is my opinion

The bass issues with his old speakers is also easy to hear. Bwoom bwoom on every recording. Do not forget, he changed for a reason. So now everyone who likes those is cheerleading set/horns?

I am sorry he deleted the videos because I enjoyed them.

the Cessaro videos were much superior. there was just so much insight into music.

the subs were well integrated. not only do the subs with the Eurodyn make noise, they were doing it in a separate part of the room (audible on videos it is a separate part) and there was a big midbass hole between the upper range and where the subs took over.

i understand someone not liking the Cessaro videos. I will put that as subjective preference. However, there is a difference between having differing opinions on fully set up integrated system Vs having differing opinions on non optimally set up system.

I totally understand if something prefers the timbre of the Eurodyn to that of the Cessaro or vice versa in the highs.

You are actually saying you like the sub integration which he is trying to get right and which sounds broken in the videos

 

[bonzo75]

I understand the distinction. Bonzo was very successful changing the subject from the ML2 ability to drive the subs which is one reason I bought a second pair to the speaker integration subject.

where did I change

 

[adyc]

I understand the distinction. Bonzo was very successful changing the subject from the ML2 ability to drive the subs which is one reason I bought a second pair to the speaker integration subject.

Congrats on your new amps. To be honest, I don’t know the spec of ML2 nor I am interested to find out. I have zero interest in tube amplifiers.
To be fair to Cessaro, his room is not best suited to bass horns. The boom boom you heard maybe due to room modes rather than Cesssro bass horns.

 

[Argonaut]

The boom boom you heard maybe due to room modes rather than Cesssro bass horns.

The most feasible conclusion yes , I don’t recall much if any mention of this all pervasive… how was it described , Oh yes “ Bwoom bwoom “ from other Cessaro owners , from hearing show condition performances and a number of other Cessaro related YT’s , if there are then I must have missed them.

 

[PeterA]

I asked DDK directly about less expensive tube gear he liked on this forum, and he said only used Lamm.

yes, he’s a Lamm dealer and it’s his favorite brand, but I’ve seen other tube gear at his house that he enjoys. He recommends it to certain people. He also auditions new high-end tube gear in his system. He prefers Lamm for sure.

You must remember that he does not have the same incentives as other dealers.

 

[PeterA]

Congrats on your new amps. To be honest, I don’t know the spec of ML2 nor I am interested to find out. I have zero interest in tube amplifiers.
To be fair to Cessaro, his room is not best suited to bass horns. The boom boom you heard maybe due to room modes rather than Cesssro bass horns.

I am not specifying cause. I’m speaking about result and what I hear and heard on videos. It’s difficult to discuss videos that are no longer there. I haven’t been to the room and I don’t know about the challenges of integrating subs to the main speakers.

 

[PeterA]

I totally understand if something prefers the timbre of the Eurodyn to that of the Cessaro or vice versa in the highs.

You are actually saying you like the sub integration which he is trying to get right and which sounds broken in the videos

Actually Bonzo, I am not describing some integration specifically in his current system. The videos are no longer there and we cannot refer to them. That is unfortunate because I’d like to re-listen. I am referring specifically to base integration on the videos of Tang’s speaker system in Utah on videos that David made. I will not post those here because they are private and not to become property of WBF.

The first couple videos that Tang posted in his office I also liked. I do not remember specifically based integration but they sounded good to me and I commented on his YouTube channel.

what I was commenting about in support of one of the reasons I bought my spare amplifiers is that David supplied subwoofers that could be driven by the ML2. I heard nothing from the videos that disputes that. And I have heard direct evidence by listening to David‘s system live. That is where this discussion started. Since you keep harping on the integration issue, I’m going to listen again to whatever videos I can find of those Eurodyns with subwoofers for my own edification.

I agree with a good portion of your horn SET video recommendations but surely not all, so I will see if I can hear what you are describing.

 

[DasguteOhr]

I love more the frontloaded horn sub from cessaro that kicks ass with amp 1.2kwatt power.
Unforgetable I haven't listened to music at home for a few days. I had to process what I heard there.

 

[bonzo75]

Actually Bonzo, I am not describing some integration specifically in his current system. The videos are no longer there and we cannot refer to them. That is unfortunate because I’d like to re-listen. I am referring specifically to base integration on the videos of Tang’s speaker system in Utah on videos that David made.

As I mentioned in my first or second post of this sub chat since yesterday, David’s Eurodyn videos sounded good. Tang’s didn’t. I also mentioned the possibility of room differences.

You wrote “and the videos of his speakers and subs in both Utah and in his room sound superb.”

 

[PeterA]

As I mentioned in my first or second post of this sub chat since yesterday, David’s Eurodyn videos sounded good. Tang’s didn’t. I also mentioned the possibility of room differences.

You wrote “and the videos of his speakers and subs in both Utah and in his room sound superb.”

Yes, I did and that is what I thought. I do not compliment the sound of videos just to be "polite". The videos, sadly, are no longer posted. I did just listen to Tang's Eurodyns in Utah, paying attention to the whole presentation, including low frequencies. On Musica Nuda, Peggy Lee's Fever, Schnitte, the speakers sound incredible. I presume David has them hooked up to the subs and crossover as these are for documentation and made just prior to preparation for shipping.

You keep harping on the sound in the office. I liked those and gave positive comments on YouTube, but they are now gone. We have one video left and it is pretty good but does not have the weight of his earlier ones. They still sound pretty good. You can continue to claim these do not represent good set/horn, but what is the point? The videos are gone, and my comments do not influence anyone anyway. You have much more reach and a much louder voice and demeanor. You win out on the video prostalitizing.

My point remains. The ML2 works extremely well on the subs David delivered with Tang's Eurodyns as evidenced by those videos. The ML2 works extremely well on his subs with his Bionors in his room which I, and many other visitors have heard live and in video. I used these examples plus the now deleted videos of Tang's system as my examples to Argonaut of my contention that the ML2 works to drive appropriately matched subs in a system, and they may do the same in my system some day in the distant future if I ever move.

Nothing you have written in your constant hammering on me disputes that point. You contend that Tang's sub integration was a work in progress and that it is a disservice to the community to compliment his implementation. I say hogwash. I liked his videos and I commented publicly about them. That is my right and you can disagree. Who noticed my comments anyway, and who cares? The videos are now deleted. This is just a distraction from the main topic that the ML2 can drive subs and sound great doing so, and it is one reason why I bought a second pair.

 

[bonzo75]

This is just a distraction from the main topic that the ML2 can drive subs and sound great doing so, and it is one reason why I bought a second pair.

I have nothing for or against this topic. Any person is free to follow their amp - sub strategy. I was surprised at your "backup" comment as I have seen NOS tubes and LPs backed up, but never the same model of amps and phono. Multiple amps of different models, yes. But no biggie.

I challenged your videos comment, whatever the rest of the distraction that followed, take it up with Tim.

 

[Lagonda]

The problem child 6c33 tube you often have working current drift if this tube is not thermally pretreated. It's not a tube that you just plug in and everything is fine. Always make sure the contact pins and tube socket are clean. then she runs stable.

My Aesthetix Io has vaccinated me against tubes, it only runs stable a few month at a time.

 

[morricab]

My Aesthetix Io has vaccinated me against tubes, it only runs stable a few month at a time.

My Silvaweld phonostage has worked perfectly for more than 10 years. My Aries Cerat Incito has worked fine for 6 years...and so on...

 

[DasguteOhr]

My Aesthetix Io has vaccinated me against tubes, it only runs stable a few month at a time.

Too complex design not my cup of tea, a good two stage phono + with sut and good power supply works works just as well. keep the circuit simple my credo. The first set of tubes has been in there build 2014, no problems.

 

[bonzo75]

My Aesthetix Io has vaccinated me against tubes, it only runs stable a few month at a time.

Why do you keep looking at American products when in EU?