Natural Sound

[Al M.]

I believe you told us that the single ended triode amplifier can not sound Natural because it has too much distortion, but also said that the SET puts out mostly 2nd and 3rd order harmonics, and that the level (being high) obscures all distortion in the higher orders?

The article points out that we are most sensitive to higher order harmonic distortion, regardless of the levels thereof. It points out how transistor amplifiers put out less distortion than SET’s but what they put out extends into the higher order harmonics which sounds unnatural to us. Based upon these facts SET’s sound more natural than solid state amplification, right?

Does reducing harmonic distortion make an amplifier sound more “Natural”? Nope. Back in the 80’s, manufacturers (mostly Japan) were pumping out loads of CD-based stack systems, many claiming 300 watts (yet you could lift the entire set with one hand) and lower Total Harmonic Distortion levels (0.0001%) by using feed back. These systems sounded crap, at best (IMHO) able to mimic what one would hear in an elevator. Despite having lower THD, no one would argue that they sounded more natural than SET’s, except you I guess.

Your last paragraph indicates that you are still unable to understand Ralph’s argument. Did you ever try to?

I am sure Ralph would agree with you on those 80"s systems being horrible, which had distortion patterns contrary to what the human ear can accept.

 

[Amir]

Natural sound is neither warm, sweet, emotional or cold. Its simply correct. If you want to add colorations, that's fine and many people do. But it won't be 'natural' by any stretch.

This is a big reason why SET guys say SETs sound better than PP, but the reality they are not comparing the two properly and are committing the same sin the 'measurement only' crowd is doing!

Again and again and again the term “Natural sound” comes from subjective audio glossary and you can not say SET is not natural because of bad measurements.

About push pull vs SET debate I agree you all conditions should be equal .
Another thing that you forget to add to comparison condition is the amplifier/speaker distortion cancellation.
You should match the speaker to amplifier for true comparison.
Audiopax designer (delima) introduced two timbrelock option to for getting minimum distortion.

 

[Amir]

I've found that when the system is right, it does not get upset and editorialize a bad recording.

1- right to which reference? Measurements (objective) or Subjective listening experience?
If you mean “right” in objective measurements then you should forget all push pull tube amplifiers because of their awful measurements.
If you mean “right” in subjective experience I think good SET amplifiers are very good if you choose match speakers.

2- the only definition of “accurate” in subjective glossary that is not listener dependent is the method of “comparison by contrast”

This method described in Audio Note UK website

 

[Amir]

Exactly and after hearing a full weekend of horn orchestras it only reinforces that dynamics are the final frontier of audio reproduction (and recording!)

100% agree you about importance of dynamics for right sound reproduction.
Bad news is many modern audio companies and also many studio recordings do not care about dynamics.
Many audiophiles are not familiar with right dynamic reproduction.
I can tell you even some audiophiles prefer compress sound.
Expert audiophiles like David @ddk Romy all care about importance of dynamics.

 

[Al M.]

100% agree you about importance of dynamics for right sound reproduction.
Bad news is many modern audio companies and also many studio recordings do not care about dynamics.
Many audiophiles are not familiar with right dynamic reproduction.
I can tell you even some audiophiles prefer compress sound.
Expert audiophiles like David @ddk Romy all care about importance of dynamics.

Great dynamics are not unique to SETs.

 

[bonzo75]

Great dynamics are not unique to SETs.

They are unique to horns, and can be done with SETs, push pulls, etc. In some horns, 300w SS will kill the dynamics, by having too much grip on the woofer.

Dynamic range is related to sensitivity and crossover. By far the highest dynamic range I heard was in the crossoverless pnoe and yamamura. When you have 110 db+ no crossover, even the smallest shift of hand is easily heard, and the rise of the cello will make it very difficult to adjust back to a crossovered speaker where the cello seems to hit a ceiling in comparison. So many details are lost on low sensitivity speakers on the rise and falls. More crossovers also means it is often a speaker with mismatched drivers - not all having similar impedance and sensitivity. Then you need to get crappy electronics to handle that impedance. Cones with SS are highly compressed in comparison. they play in a restricted bandwidth good for audiophile music without much swing.

 

[Jim Smith]

They are unique to horns, and can be done with SETs, push pulls, etc. In some horns, 300w SS will kill the dynamics, by having too much grip on the woofer.

Dynamic range is related to sensitivity and crossover. By far the highest dynamic range I heard was in the crossoverless pnoe and yamamura. When you have 110 db+ no crossover, even the smallest shift of hand is easily heard, and the rise of the cello will make it very difficult to adjust back to a crossovered speaker where the cello seems to hit a ceiling in comparison. So many details are lost on low sensitivity speakers on the rise and falls. More crossovers also means it is often a speaker with mismatched drivers - not all having similar impedance and sensitivity. Then you need to get crappy electronics to handle that impedance. Cones with SS are highly compressed in comparison. they play in a restricted bandwidth good for audiophile music without much swing.

 

[Jim Smith]

The bottom line, at least for me, is when I stop listening to sounds and I fall into the music.

 

[wil]

No, “warm”, “emotional”, “sweet” … all are examples of subjective terms and I did not say “natural” is equal to those terms.

Is Natural Sound merely a subjective descriptor of how we like our stereo system to sound in our room (such as Peter’s idea and aural memory of live acoustic performances)? For sure, what we can get in our rooms can be relatively natural sounding…

For me, the term evokes more of an ideal — un-reachable, like all ideals. I relate to this as sounds heard in Nature in the ultimate listening room— planet earth. These sounds are infinitely subtle, pure and deep. (not to mention accurate). No concert hall, much less audio listening room, can approach this.

The closest I’ve heard to this ideal has been in large symphony halls. What we can get in our listening rooms is completely different — but not to say it can’t be a great musical experience.

 

[Amir]

Is Natural Sound merely a subjective descriptor of how we like our stereo system to sound in our room (such as Peter’s idea and aural memory of live acoustic performances)? For sure, what we can get in our rooms can be relatively natural sounding…

For me, the term evokes more of an ideal — un-reachable, like all ideals. I relate to this as sounds heard in Nature in the ultimate listening room— planet earth. These sounds are infinitely subtle, pure and deep. (not to mention accurate). No concert hall, much less audio listening room, can approach this.

The closest I’ve heard to this ideal has been in large symphony halls. What we can get in our listening rooms is completely different — but not to say it can’t be a great musical experience.

If David @ddk was here then he could explain more about his idea about “Natural Sound”. For the first time David told me about “natural sound” and I think I know what he means. I think the “Natural sound” is opposite to the sound of most modern systems .
It refers to more dynamic, more organic tone, more coherent sound with less artifical effects .
Some examples :
David prefer Analog to digital
David prefer copper cables to silver.
David prefer non-audiophile AC cables to most audiophile AC cables
David prefer removing all AC filters
David prefer good tube amplification to high power high feedback solidstate amplification
David prefer high efficiency speakers to dead sounding modern speakers

As you know David @ddk has Lamm ML3 + Big horn (Bionore) + both digital and many analog turntables

I hope David back here to share his ideas

 

[Amir]

They are unique to horns, and can be done with SETs, push pulls, etc. In some horns, 300w SS will kill the dynamics, by having too much grip on the woofer.

Dynamic range is related to sensitivity and crossover. By far the highest dynamic range I heard was in the crossoverless pnoe and yamamura. When you have 110 db+ no crossover, even the smallest shift of hand is easily heard, and the rise of the cello will make it very difficult to adjust back to a crossovered speaker where the cello seems to hit a ceiling in comparison. So many details are lost on low sensitivity speakers on the rise and falls. More crossovers also means it is often a speaker with mismatched drivers - not all having similar impedance and sensitivity. Then you need to get crappy electronics to handle that impedance. Cones with SS are highly compressed in comparison. they play in a restricted bandwidth good for audiophile music without much swing.

I do not claim high performance cone + SS systems can beat good 110db horn but the important factor for dynamics is AC power quality.

I have listened to Wilson Alexandria X2 + Vitus 25w Class A when the AC quality was super good and the dynamics was very very good.
I also had a wonderful experience with complete TAD system (TAD D600/C600/M700/R1) when the AC quality was superior, the dynamics was beyond my imagination.

For high power SS amplification you need high quality AC power to have right judgment about dynamics.

 

[Atmasphere]

Again and again and again the term “Natural sound” comes from subjective audio glossary and you can not say SET is not natural because of bad measurements.

About push pull vs SET debate I agree you all conditions should be equal .
Another thing that you forget to add to comparison condition is the amplifier/speaker distortion cancellation.
You should match the speaker to amplifier for true comparison.
Audiopax designer (delima) introduced two timbrelock option to for getting minimum distortion.

I did point out the dire need to match speakers. Again: http://www.atma-sphere.com/en/resources-paradigms-in-amplifier-design.html

And yes I can say SETs are not natural because of bad measurements- I've pointed out what those measurements are. If you fix them the SET will sound natural. Good luck with that.

1- right to which reference? Measurements (objective) or Subjective listening experience?
If you mean “right” in objective measurements then you should forget all push pull tube amplifiers because of their awful measurements.
If you mean “right” in subjective experience I think good SET amplifiers are very good if you choose match speakers.

2- the only definition of “accurate” in subjective glossary that is not listener dependent is the method of “comparison by contrast”

This method described in Audio Note UK website

I use recordings I produced as reference. I also use measurements. For heaven's sake, are you people attacking my posts without reading them?? Again, as I pointed out earlier I'm in the camp of Daniel von Recklinghousen : "If it measures good and sounds bad, it is bad; if it measures bad and sounds good, you've measured the wrong thing."

100% agree you about importance of dynamics for right sound reproduction.
Bad news is many modern audio companies and also many studio recordings do not care about dynamics.
Many audiophiles are not familiar with right dynamic reproduction.
I can tell you even some audiophiles prefer compress sound.
Expert audiophiles like David @ddk Romy all care about importance of dynamics.

Again, SETs are well-known for dynamics beyond their apparent low power, again as I've stated earlier, this is distortion masquerading as 'dynamics'. Actual dynamics comes from the signal. Anything else isn't natural. Fun, but unnatural.

The only way to get compressed sound during playback is by using a compressor. If there is no compressor and it does not sound as dynamic as an SET, its simply because whatever 'it' is, its making less distortion (hopefully distortion of 'it' is not also causing 'it' to be boring). Again as I said earlier. the ear is keenly sensitive to higher ordered harmonics which appear in any SET above about 20-25% of full power. Since transients are where the power is, the distortion on the transients make the SET sound 'dynamic' and that distortion also causes the amp to sound loud (which is why so many SET users report that they really don't need that much power; the distortion is making it sound loud). A sound pressure level meter (available as an app) sorts the latter bit out quite quickly. Also again: It is the mark of the best audio systems that they do not sound loud even when they are.

They are unique to horns, and can be done with SETs, push pulls, etc. In some horns, 300w SS will kill the dynamics, by having too much grip on the woofer.

Dynamic range is related to sensitivity and crossover. By far the highest dynamic range I heard was in the crossoverless pnoe and yamamura. When you have 110 db+ no crossover, even the smallest shift of hand is easily heard, and the rise of the cello will make it very difficult to adjust back to a crossovered speaker where the cello seems to hit a ceiling in comparison. So many details are lost on low sensitivity speakers on the rise and falls. More crossovers also means it is often a speaker with mismatched drivers - not all having similar impedance and sensitivity. Then you need to get crappy electronics to handle that impedance. Cones with SS are highly compressed in comparison. they play in a restricted bandwidth good for audiophile music without much swing.

To the first statement, mostly true until we arrive at the last. 'Too much grip' depends entirely on the speaker design. Some speakers need more damping and others need less. Read This!! While this article was written a long time ago, its still important.

Getting rid of crossovers is good for dynamics. But 'full range' drivers, which are needed if no crossover is used (unless an electronic crossover is used instead) get in trouble when you turn up the volume.

David prefer good tube amplification to high power high feedback solidstate amplification

Most solid state amps ever made have the feedback applied in an inappropriate manner. So while this is very understandable and something most of us on this thread have experienced a lot, its not the fault of solid state or feedback; instead the feedback isn't applied properly.

If you want to see how to apply feedback, look at any opamp circuit. With modern opamps as long as you don't ask over 20dB of gain they are quite neutral, musical, accurate and natural. (Older opamps need not apply.) In an opamp circuit, the feedback is mixed with the incoming audio signal using a resistive divider network, rather than applying the feedback to a tube (opamps were developed in the tube ear BTW...) or semiconductor. Reistors are a whole lot more linear than active devices. So the feedback signal is a lot more able to do its job properly since its not getting messed up before doing it! Opamps and most solid state amp designs look very similar on paper save for this particular issue. I've described already the other reason feedback gets in trouble in most amplifiers so won't repeat myself here.

 

[bonzo75]

Getting rid of crossovers is good for dynamics. But 'full range' drivers, which are needed if no crossover is used (unless an electronic crossover is used instead) get in trouble when you turn up the volume.

Very incorrect statement. To start with, there are very few full range quality drivers. The only one I have heard is AER BD4 and 5, till 3 is not good enough. You might be comparing lowther. There is Feastrex, but I haven't heard it and very few people have.

With that kind of coherence and sensitivity, swings are amazing, best lows to highs, no need to touch volume on full orchestra. A good system should do dips and highs without touching the volume.

 

[Amir]

For heaven's sake, are you people attacking my posts without reading them??

I never attacked your posts and I never attacked any member in this forum.
I am sorry for bothering you .

I never said SET is more dynamic than push-pull and I said the dynamics of good horns are more than most cone speakers.

I think I did not get my answers from you

 

[hopkins]

Very incorrect statement. To start with, there are very few full range quality drivers. The only one I have heard is AER BD4 and 5, till 3 is not good enough. You might be comparing lowther. There is Feastrex, but I haven't heard it and very few people have.

With that kind of coherence and sensitivity, swings are amazing, best lows to highs, no need to touch volume on full orchestra. A good system should do dips and highs without touching the volume.

The Altec 755A really impressed me. The qualities are not limited to the sense of "dynamics". Compare its impulse response to any multi-range driver (or other single range driver) and you'll figure out one of the reasons why.

The sound is "palpable". It has impressive clarity and detail. The sound of a single driver can fill an entire room and you could be fooled, when listening to voices, that you are in the presence of the singer. I've never heard anything quite like it. The cabinets introduce some artefacts, it could certainly be optimized. It worked wonderfully with my amp (but never tried it with others).

If only it had a little smoother and extended frequency response. If only it were available in matched pairs at a reasonable price and in good condition. But it isn't...

 

[PeterA]

Very incorrect statement. To start with, there are very few full range quality drivers. The only one I have heard is AER BD4 and 5, till 3 is not good enough. You might be comparing lowther. There is Feastrex, but I haven't heard it and very few people have.

With that kind of coherence and sensitivity, swings are amazing, best lows to highs, no need to touch volume on full orchestra. A good system should do dips and highs without touching the volume.

Bonzo, what is the low frequency extension of the system you are describing? If it does not cover the bottom active without rolling off, some claim it cannot be accurate or natural sounding.

 

[PeterA]

Is Natural Sound merely a subjective descriptor of how we like our stereo system to sound in our room (such as Peter’s idea and aural memory of live acoustic performances)? For sure, what we can get in our rooms can be relatively natural sounding…

For me, the term evokes more of an ideal — un-reachable, like all ideals. I relate to this as sounds heard in Nature in the ultimate listening room— planet earth. These sounds are infinitely subtle, pure and deep. (not to mention accurate). No concert hall, much less audio listening room, can approach this.

The closest I’ve heard to this ideal has been in large symphony halls. What we can get in our listening rooms is completely different — but not to say it can’t be a great musical experience.

For me, natural sound is an ideal, but it is also achievable as I heard in four different systems in Utah and then elsewhere.

If it is an unachievable ideal for you, I hope you have found a system that you at least enjoy. I experience your ideal of natural sound every day when I get on my sailboat and head out to sea: wind and waves and the warm sun on my skin.

 

[wil]

Since you bring up my system, I'm very happy with it and believe it produces relatively natural and musically involving sound. I don't for a moment indulge in a fantasy that it approaches anything more than nice facsimile of a full symphony in a good hall. Or, more pertinent to the point of my post, to the sounds of nature -- aka, true natural sound.

We audiophiles, like to speak of references. To me, this is the ultimate reference.

For an obvious comparison, listen closely to thunder from an approaching storm. Listen to the power and unlimited dynamics. ("dynamics" is a feeble word to attempt to describe it). Listen to the seemingly infinite decay of the vibrating air. Do you really think electronics and speaker drivers come close to this?

Or for a more subtle experience, in a forest, away from the man-made din, listen to leaves rustling in a light breeze.

From my experience, there's no sound system that can come close to the delicacy and depth of these natural sounds. Certainly not here or in a system in Utah.

This is not to minimize the sonic achievements of nice stereo systems. It just a reference to reality.

 

[bonzo75]

Bonzo, what is the low frequency extension of the system you are describing? If it does not cover the bottom active without rolling off, some claim it cannot be accurate or natural sounding.

How many more times

 

[Atmasphere]

Very incorrect statement. To start with, there are very few full range quality drivers. The only one I have heard is AER BD4 and 5, till 3 is not good enough. You might be comparing lowther. There is Feastrex, but I haven't heard it and very few people have.

With that kind of coherence and sensitivity, swings are amazing, best lows to highs, no need to touch volume on full orchestra. A good system should do dips and highs without touching the volume.

I have a friend who has spent the last 25 years trying to help a friend make 'full range' drivers work (he still is, which seems to have a lot in common with hitting yourself in the head with a hammer; it feels a lot better when you stop). He doesn't seem to get why it sounds congested at higher volumes. At low volumes they sound great and he likes to listen at lower levels and to fairly simple material like a blues guy that is only playing guitar. But if you throw something complex at them the bass causes all of them (he's got a room full of drivers he's tried) to make Doppler Effect distortion which does not sound good. If you prevent the bass getting on the driver the Doppler Effect is vastly reduced and the result is much smoother sound with improved detail. But now there's a crossover, which seems to be against his religion. He's always had subs, but the whole thing only works to a certain volume depending on the material; at some point the Doppler Effect takes over and the system just doesn't sound right.

In addition, if the highs are there you have to have your head in vise to hear them. That is why a rear firing tweeter or the like is handy so if you're slightly off axis at least the tonal balance doesn't suffer so much. Even the 12"units have this problem, even the field coil powered ones do.

I keep telling him that the main driver doesn't have to have a high frequency crossover, just something for the tweeter. Actually if you just bite the bullet and actually use a good tweeter its a lot better if you cross the main driver out so there's no comb filtering (which sounds harsh). So the upshot is you can get the system to sound a lot better if you have a crossover for the woofer and the tweeter. But if you don't play at higher levels (which you might if you're really close to the speaker or the room is small and lively) then they work great.

I never attacked your posts and I never attacked any member in this forum.
I am sorry for bothering you .

I never said SET is more dynamic than push-pull and I said the dynamics of good horns are more than most cone speakers.

I don't mind if you attack my posts and I don't think you attacked me. But it did seem that you hadn't read what I wrote earlier.