Natural Sound

[bonzo75]

I have a friend who has spent the last 25 years trying to help a friend make 'full range' drivers work (he still is, which seems to have a lot in common with hitting yourself in the head with a hammer;

I guess your friend is not the next Yamamura or Filipe off AER then.

 

[Atmasphere]

I guess your friend is not the next Yamamura or Filipe off AER then.

Got that right!!

 

[PeterA]

How many more times

Now that I have my computer back, I can listen to system videos again. I will give these a listen. I was more curious if you know the extension in terms of hertz of this system. It’s not a requirement for me, but it is for Ralph who says you need the bottom active for it to sound natural. Even that might not satisfy Wil though because he has a different idea of natural sound. It is all most interesting.

 

[DasguteOhr]

I have a friend who has spent the last 25 years trying to help a friend make 'full range' drivers work (he still is, which seems to have a lot in common with hitting yourself in the head with a hammer; it feels a lot better when you stop). He doesn't seem to get why it sounds congested at higher volumes. At low volumes they sound great and he likes to listen at lower levels and to fairly simple material like a blues guy that is only playing guitar. But if you throw something complex at them the bass causes all of them (he's got a room full of drivers he's tried) to make Doppler Effect distortion which does not sound good. If you prevent the bass getting on the driver the Doppler Effect is vastly reduced and the result is much smoother sound with improved detail. But now there's a crossover, which seems to be against his religion. He's always had subs, but the whole thing only works to a certain volume depending on the material; at some point the Doppler Effect takes over and the system just doesn't sound right.

In addition, if the highs are there you have to have your head in vise to hear them. That is why a rear firing tweeter or the like is handy so if you're slightly off axis at least the tonal balance doesn't suffer so much. Even the 12"units have this problem, even the field coil powered ones do.

I keep telling him that the main driver doesn't have to have a high frequency crossover, just something for the tweeter. Actually if you just bite the bullet and actually use a good tweeter its a lot better if you cross the main driver out so there's no comb filtering (which sounds harsh). So the upshot is you can get the system to sound a lot better if you have a crossover for the woofer and the tweeter. But if you don't play at higher levels (which you might if you're really close to the speaker or the room is small and lively) then they work great.

I don't mind if you attack my posts and I don't think you attacked me. But it did seem that you hadn't read what I wrote earlier.

You've hit the nail into the beam with one blow. That's why, after 5 years of experimenting, I've given up on the idea of full-range speakers. Although in a normal-sized room a Coral Beta 10" works pretty damn well. But the problem with the hightons also occurs. Just add a Fostex T 500 horn 6 dB xover at 7 kHz and a notch for rolloff coral beta you'll get a really good speaker.

High efficiency compression tweeter Fostex T500AMKIII, 8 ohm, with base

Impedance: 8 ohm Frequency Response: 7kHz – 40kHz (-10dB) S.P.L.: 104dB/w(1m) Input: 15W (Nom.) Cut Off Frequency: 3.5kHz Recommended Cross-Over Frequency: More than 7kHz (-12dB/oct.) Net Weight: 5,150kg Accessories: Tweeter Base - Ring-shaped p

en.toutlehautparleur.com

 

[PeterA]

OK Bonzo, Those videos sound good to me. I had heard them before but needed the refresher because you post a lot of videos. To me, the sound is full and balanced, no harshness, good resolution, overall, natural sounding, even over my computer which is not SET/horn. Of course it sounds much better there in the room. So, I guess the question is would Ralph consider such a system natural and accurate to either the recording or to the sound of those instruments live. Then again, the answer to that question only really matters to the owner, who I think is former member Audiophile Bill. I would love to hear his actual system, Thanks for sharing those videos.

 

[bonzo75]

OK Bonzo, Those videos sound good to me. I had heard them before but needed the refresher because you post a lot of videos. To me, the sound is full and balanced, no harshness, good resolution, overall, natural sounding, even over my computer which is not SET/horn. Of course it sounds much better there in the room. So, I guess the question is would Ralph consider such a system natural and accurate to either the recording or to the sound of those instruments live. Then again, the answer to that question only really matters to the owner, who I think is former member Audiophile Bill. I would love to hear his actual system, Thanks for sharing those videos.

And his system is not even properly set up. It can go a long way if he replicates the system he liked to make the pnoe buying decision.

 

[morricab]

Bonzo, what is the low frequency extension of the system you are describing? If it does not cover the bottom active without rolling off, some claim it cannot be accurate or natural sounding.

Naturalness, as you are aware, doesn’t have too much to do with ultimate extension in the bass or highs even. True dynamics at all frequencies reproduced matters a lot more.

 

[Argonaut]

l


And his system is not even properly set up. It can go a long way if he replicates the system he liked to make the pnoe buying decision.

Wonderful sounding set-up , and yet Bill Is experimenting with horn loaded sub implementation knowing that the Pnoe’s performance are enhanced where larger more demanding recordings are concerned .

 

[bonzo75]

And yet Bill Is experimenting with horn loaded sub implementation .

He bought the subs, seldom uses it. And as he knows too, he is best of replicating the original system. Subs are definitely not required, if someone wants they can add it.

 

[Argonaut]

He bought the subs, seldom uses it. And as he knows too, he is best of replicating the original system. Subs are definitely not required, if someone wants they can add it.

Re read my addendum made before your post.

 

[Argonaut]

Subs are definitely not required

Hmmmm , That does’nt quite concur with a couple of sample audio vids that he sent me a little while back …

 

[bonzo75]

Re read my addendum made before your post.

They are not enhanced with larger more demanding recordings

 

[bonzo75]

Hmmmm , That does’nt quite concur with a couple of sample audio vids that he sent me a little while back …

That’s quite possible, his system has not sounded good with the amps he used. This was an amp in for a short time on demo thanks to Glide3. His system is at 10 percent of what is possible. I haven’t heard his latest Japanese one yet

 

[Argonaut]

They are not enhanced with larger more demanding recordings

According to you ?

In the spirit of exploration of his system matters may have changed of late , he has quite likely to have built himself a humungous folded bass horn in the last week …

 

[bonzo75]

According to you ?

Pointless. I have heard those speakers in different variations since 2018, he heard them many times and bought them, changed his whole system and DIY strategy, and you have never heard them.

 

[Argonaut]

Pointless. I have heard those speakers in different variations since 2018, he heard them many times and bought them, changed his whole system and DIY strategy, and you have never heard them.

I am merely referencing direct 1 to 1 conversation , I don’t quite see the point that you are attempting to make .

 

[Atmasphere]

OK Bonzo, Those videos sound good to me. I had heard them before but needed the refresher because you post a lot of videos. To me, the sound is full and balanced, no harshness, good resolution, overall, natural sounding, even over my computer which is not SET/horn. Of course it sounds much better there in the room. So, I guess the question is would Ralph consider such a system natural and accurate to either the recording or to the sound of those instruments live. Then again, the answer to that question only really matters to the owner, who I think is former member Audiophile Bill. I would love to hear his actual system, Thanks for sharing those videos.

To know that I'd put on a copy of Canto and see if the system tries to shake the room apart. Its a big enough drum used that it rumbles even played quietly.

I found this copy (long out of print BTW, so I'm not trying to sell anything) is on ebay right now.

 

[PeterA]

Naturalness, as you are aware, doesn’t have too much to do with ultimate extension in the bass or highs even. True dynamics at all frequencies reproduced matters a lot more.

I agree with you Brad, but this is one of the conditions that must be met for Ralph. And it is the reason why this discussion continues because there is fundamental lack of agreement.

 

[Atmasphere]

If its not full bandwidth how can it be natural?? Real sounds are full bandwidth. Real sounds are natural. So there's the disconnect.
I'm not saying you can't get a lot of enjoyment out of a system that isn't full bandwidth. But let's not be fooling ourselves- its not natural by any stretch. I've restored a variety of older radios and tuners that I use about the house and really enjoy playing them but I don't think for a minute they produce anything natural.

So perhaps you could explain how something that fails to produce the entire signal is 'natural'? I really do want to know.

 

[morricab]

I agree with you Brad, but this is one of the conditions that must be met for Ralph. And it is the reason why this discussion continues because there is fundamental lack of agreement.

I am not trying meet any conditions for Ralph…he is just plain wrong about a number of things…I don’t care if is handy with a soldering iron. He put me on ignore because I exposed a number of his fallacies and it upset him. He has flipped 180 degrees with the introduction of his Class D amps, effectively becoming a measurements first guy…a platform he could never stand on when he was only selling OTLs…oh and those had to be pure Class A (his never actually were) and no feedback (his lower models actually had some).

Most instruments and voices have a rather narrow frequency range, which is why a speaker can have somewhat limited bandwidth and still sound natural…sure some very low instruments like pipe organ or extremely high…like picolo overtones might take a hit on realism but not the majority.

Ever hear a gramophone? Despite the obvious bandwidth limitations they can in many important ways sound more realistic and natural than many modern high end systems…the brain just recognises the patterns…