Natural Sound
- Thread starter PeterA
- Start date
Thank you Lautreamont. I appreciate the kind words. You get the full story in the first two pages of this thread. Later came a better turntable (American Sound AS2000) and phonostage (Lamm LP1) and improvements to fine tuning with speaker positioning and turntable set up. You can skip most of the reading. I have enjoyed reading your new thread and look forward your progress.
I am new on this forum, but listening to live musik is the real sound! Or am I wrong?Of speel een akoestisch instrument. Als je naar livemuziek komt luisteren in plaats van naar stereo's, is er veel dat je moet afleren.
CorDn, live music is real sound or natural sound. You are right about that. It is also the elusive target and the subject of this system thread. Welcome to the forum.
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The phasemation SUT was quite better than the Head with the phasemation cartridge.
U brengt een aantal interessante en belangrijke punten naar voren die ik regelmatig tegenkom.
Mensen genieten van wat ze leuk vinden Bob. krachtige gebruik live onversterkte muziek als referentie en anderen voettikken en hoofdboppen, ooit naar een Tool-concert geweest
Het hangt af van je definitie van tweak, als je een +700lbs rack geschikt is, dan hebben we een begrip van de term. Als je alleen gericht bent op een materiaal dat wordt gebruikt in de build voor je definitie van tweak, dan is alles in het systeem een tweak en geen component.
Als je al lang met deze hobby bezig bent, is de kans groot dat je fouten hebt gemaakt en onderweg veel troep hebt verzameld waar je vanaf moet, anders worden ze te zwaar voor je. Noem het reductionisme, purisme van wat je maar wilt, maar vasthouden doet me denken aan George en zijn exploderende portemonnee. De scène in het restaurant waarin hij zijn andere zak volpropt met tissues om zijn kont in evenwicht te brengen, doet me denken aan het konijnenhol van het tegengaan van de ene slechte aanpassing met de andere
Je deed gewoon hetzelfde als Peter en ging veel verder dan hem, alleen omdat je iets hoorde wat je beter vond. Heb je die beslissing genomen door naar klassieke muziek te luisteren?
Natural Sound is simplistisch, is er een reden waarom het niet is? Misschien is dat juist het mooie ervan! Ik begrijp het gebrek aan gemeenschappelijke referentie, maar wat ik niet snap is het gebrek aan moeite om iets te begrijpen voordat hij zonder enige reden uithaalt. Peter heeft meer dan een jaar besteed aan het selecteren van zijn kamer, systeem en opstelling en heeft het gedocumenteerd voor iedereen die geïnteresseerd is in het proces, en is toen een week hierheen gevlogen om naar dit simplistische natuurlijke geluid te luisteren met de goedkope kinderarbeidsnoeren voordat hij een nam beslissing. Het is gemakkelijk om kritiek te leveren, maar heb je een proces dat je met iedereen wilt delen voor je beslissing? Je hebt net een grote check uitgeschreven en een enorme verandering ingewikkeld, dus wat is je doelgeluid, kun je het zelfs zo duidelijk gemaakt als Peter met het zijne? Kun je dezelfde vraag hebben die je hebt voor Peter's Natural Sound zelf beantwoorden met betrekking tot je sonische richting voordat je meer van hem eist? De ondervragers staan klaar en komen jouw kant op
Ik heb absoluut geen probleem als iemand mijn CC-snoeren afkraakt en wat dan ook genoemd wordt, ik wist precies wat ik 20 jaar geleden wilde en waarom ik CC koos en dit specifieke snoer uit hun gemonteerde onderdelenbak. Je bent van plan om een high-end dealer te worden, welke netsnoeren ga je je klanten aanbieden en waarom dat specifieke snoer, afgezien van het bekijken van een menu en welke vragen ze zich kunnen verplaatsen? Heb je een Ching Cheng die op elk systeemniveau voorbij is, maar die toch betaalbaar is voor iedereen om aan je klanten aan te bieden? Een netsnoer dat de tand des tijds heeft doorstaan tegen de duurste in de branche en dat niet meteen een te dure hondenriem wordt zodra je het koopt omdat de volgende "perfecte beste" versie uit is?
myThe benarde situatie van de beledigden en hun verdedigers is mijn favoriet, natuurlijk indirect je dat je door alleen maar een pieve te hebben iemand beledigt Bob. Heb je er ook maar één seconde over nagedacht hoe beledigend je bent door je all star all American merk in te ruilen voor buitenlandse import zonder stamboom? Laat me er heel duidelijk over zijn, het is niet alleen afgeleid en geïmpliceerd dat niet elk systeem natuurlijk klinkt, het is een feit! Mensen kunnen het oneens zijn over wat ze willen, maar onwaarschijnlijk dat er een goed en een slecht van natuurlijk is en niet, is de realiteit onwaarschijnlijk. Waarom heb je je systeem niet geïntegreerd als je feitelijk gelooft in het beledigde verhaal en alles net zo goed is als alles anders? Ik weet dat je in Portland bent, maar laat deze onzin je er niet van weerhouden om meer en beter te doen
I moved this post from a different thread:
Hello thekong, I did install my vdH Colibri XPP onto one of my SME 3012R tonearms this weekend. This cartridge was a gift from a good friend and it is about 10-15 years old. It has about 50 hours playing time on it. This was my first vdH cartridge and based on how it sounded in my old system on my SME Model 30/12, I decided to get a couple Colibri Master Signatures which have since been upgraded. One is a Grand Cru, and one is a Grand Cru Elite.
Compared to the newer Colibris, I find the XPP sounds a bit more robust, with more weight and mass. It gives up a bit of refinement and nuance. The timbre is not quite as true, but it is very dynamic and retrieves a lot of information. The lower end is closer to my vintage Ortofon SL15 and is very solid with great body.
Your comments are interesting. I find that setting the VTA is critical. This established balance and focus. A bit of air can be achieved by lowering the VTF. My current settings are: VTF 1.1g, anti-skate 0.5g, and the arm is slightly high in back so that the stylus is just down from vertical. In email exchanges with Mr. van den Hul, he explained to me that most people apply too much VTF and have the arms too low. His cartridges really open up and become alive and full of energy with low tracking force and the proper VTA. I agree with his suggestions about set up.
In terms of what I hear with the XPP and GC, I would say brass instruments like tuba and trombone have more bight, weight, and low extension with the XPP. Big drums have more mass, impact and presence, and sound more convincingly hollow with the XPP. The Grand Cru and Elite have more nuance, more ambiance. Cymbals and brush work, and wind instruments have more energy and richer tone. Voices are more immediate and present, in part because sibilance is more natural, not as subdued as with the XPP, though it never gets harsh or hot or fatiguing. Where the newer Colibris really shine is their presentation of strings. There is a near perfect balance of string texture and resonance of wooden body. There is so much energy and it is presented very convincingly. The nuance allows one to easily image individual violins or plucked basses rather than just a homogenized tone.
These differences are fairly small, but I would summarize by saying that I slightly prefer the mass and weight of the XPP while the GC has better nuance and ambiance. From the lower midrange up, it is extremely pure and revealing. Both cartridges present the energy, dynamics and resolution for which the Colibris are well known. Neither cartridge is forgiving in terms of set up.
There have been some comments about loading, and I suspect some flexibility with various SUTs might benefit the presentation compared to the fixed loading in my Lamm LP1 phono stage.
Hello thekong, I did install my vdH Colibri XPP onto one of my SME 3012R tonearms this weekend. This cartridge was a gift from a good friend and it is about 10-15 years old. It has about 50 hours playing time on it. This was my first vdH cartridge and based on how it sounded in my old system on my SME Model 30/12, I decided to get a couple Colibri Master Signatures which have since been upgraded. One is a Grand Cru, and one is a Grand Cru Elite.
Compared to the newer Colibris, I find the XPP sounds a bit more robust, with more weight and mass. It gives up a bit of refinement and nuance. The timbre is not quite as true, but it is very dynamic and retrieves a lot of information. The lower end is closer to my vintage Ortofon SL15 and is very solid with great body.
Your comments are interesting. I find that setting the VTA is critical. This established balance and focus. A bit of air can be achieved by lowering the VTF. My current settings are: VTF 1.1g, anti-skate 0.5g, and the arm is slightly high in back so that the stylus is just down from vertical. In email exchanges with Mr. van den Hul, he explained to me that most people apply too much VTF and have the arms too low. His cartridges really open up and become alive and full of energy with low tracking force and the proper VTA. I agree with his suggestions about set up.
In terms of what I hear with the XPP and GC, I would say brass instruments like tuba and trombone have more bight, weight, and low extension with the XPP. Big drums have more mass, impact and presence, and sound more convincingly hollow with the XPP. The Grand Cru and Elite have more nuance, more ambiance. Cymbals and brush work, and wind instruments have more energy and richer tone. Voices are more immediate and present, in part because sibilance is more natural, not as subdued as with the XPP, though it never gets harsh or hot or fatiguing. Where the newer Colibris really shine is their presentation of strings. There is a near perfect balance of string texture and resonance of wooden body. There is so much energy and it is presented very convincingly. The nuance allows one to easily image individual violins or plucked basses rather than just a homogenized tone.
These differences are fairly small, but I would summarize by saying that I slightly prefer the mass and weight of the XPP while the GC has better nuance and ambiance. From the lower midrange up, it is extremely pure and revealing. Both cartridges present the energy, dynamics and resolution for which the Colibris are well known. Neither cartridge is forgiving in terms of set up.
There have been some comments about loading, and I suspect some flexibility with various SUTs might benefit the presentation compared to the fixed loading in my Lamm LP1 phono stage.
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Hi Peter, thank you for the detailed reply! It is interesting that you found the XPP having more weight and mass than the newer Colibris, quite the opposite of what I have experienced. But then, I have only auditioned the newer Colibris in my friends’ systems, so maybe I should get or borrow one to play in my own system.
I agreed that the VTA and VTF are critical for the Colibris. My XPP could change from sounding dull to bright within a range of 0.05g of VTF. But I am quite surprised that your VTF setting is as low as 1.1g. One of my friends also had a XPP, and both of us arrived at a VTF of 1.42g independently in our own systems.
I don’t have my XPP in front of me, but I believe the recommended VTF is around 1.35-1.45g. I wonder what is the recommended VTF for your sample?
I agreed that the VTA and VTF are critical for the Colibris. My XPP could change from sounding dull to bright within a range of 0.05g of VTF. But I am quite surprised that your VTF setting is as low as 1.1g. One of my friends also had a XPP, and both of us arrived at a VTF of 1.42g independently in our own systems.
I don’t have my XPP in front of me, but I believe the recommended VTF is around 1.35-1.45g. I wonder what is the recommended VTF for your sample?
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Yes kong, I did notice this difference in our observations. To me, the Colibris have improved in terms of nuance and resolution, tamed the highs, and become extremely transparent over time, but they have gotten a bit thin sounding. The XPP is the oldest one I have ever had in my system. It is also important to note that sample to sample variation is an issue with these. Outputs vary and if I had more flexibility with loading my phono, results may also change.
I have learned over time just how little I understand about this stuff and that only by living with something over time in my own system can I really understand what something is doing and work to optimize it. It is the same with my speakers. I assumed that they could just be placed in the corner. I have discovered that it is not that simple in my old house. The room is not square, the floors are uneven, distances are not the same. I have worked to adjust the corner horns to be as symmetrical as possible and it has made a big difference. These Colibris are very finicky and I need a lot of time to set them up properly.
Here are two videos of the same music comparing the XPP to the Grand Cru. I am not sure the cartridge differences come across very clearly in these with this simple vocal and bass music.
Hi Peter, I have only listened to the two recordings with Bluetooth earphone via an iPhone, so probably not that revealing. While I didn’t notice much difference in terms of weight and mass, I agreed that the Grand Cru had better nuance and resolution! If I have to choose between the two cartridges based on these recordings, I would certainly choose the Grand Cru! What is the output of your Grand Cru, around 1mv ?
There's more to the difference in sound between those two videos than can be explained by the change in cartridge.
You should get some kind of stand for your phone to do those so you are not changing the recording spot, phone position, etc... Also make sure the volume is the same.
The XPP output is 0.4 mV. The output of the Grand Cru is 0.35 mV. Any other differences might be listed in the two boxes in the photograph below.
I continue to listen to the two Colibris. I do like the added weight and body of the XPP. As someone told me, the GC makes everything sound like you’re right at the microphone. The XPP and my vintage Ortofon have a slightly more distant listening perspective. I do slightly prefer the GC video because it is so immediate and the singer’s voice is so present. Extremely transparent, and with the nearfield listening position,, there is very little room influence.
Well, the only thing I changed was the cartridge. I did not match the volume, which is slightly different because they were made at different times. You can always adjust the volume on your listening device, but I tend to listen to videos in isolation and not as comparisons taking each video on its own. The comparison I make is always to my memory of live music.
Some people have written me and told me they prefer the older Colibrí.
I have not used a stand for the phone because I like to show the needle drop at the beginning plus the LP1 cover. Tang used to do this and I thought it was a good technique. It also confirms for the viewer that the recording is what you think it is and not just a video with a different source for sound.
I don’t think the sound changes from slight changes in camera position because my head moves around as much as the camera does when listening and I don’t notice it when I’m listening. I appreciate your continued advice.
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The second video sounds out of phase, are you sure the cartridge is connected correctly?
The XPP is wired differently so I have to reverse the hook up wires, which I did. The second video is the GC and that sounded correct but it’s no longer on the table so I can’t confirm. Thanks for pointing it out. Next time I install that cartridge, I will check. If that is the case, it may explain why it sounds slightly thin in comparison.
+1
Look at the measurement on the sac page, that reflects exactly what Ralph said. There are strong different reactions to incorrect ohm termination, depending on the manufacturer and winding technique. So of the suts that I have here, silvercore is by far the least unproblematic.
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